DCIs vs stock and modified air boxes

[KennyP]

hmm.. Evo1 is actually bar and plate design...

Evo2 was initially offered in both designs... bar and plate "Evo 2 Performance" and fin and tube "EVO2 Competition"... now bar and plate version of evo2 was quite a bit cheaper than tube and fin version... would think if bar and plate was so much better then everybody would have bought that one and saved some cash in the process.. but it ended up being the tube and fin version that was much more popular so that Wagner stopped making bar and plate version of the EVO2... now why is that so?

That was a few years ago. Now they only offer that "Competition" tube and fin model of the EVO 2.

I do agree with the durability point you made. Bar and plate is more robust.

I dont agree with you on the cost part though... Bar and plate intercoolers are much easier to construct than modern tube and fin versions... you cant slap them together just as easily...

For example see this video:
https://youtu.be/7P7KanLrZko?si=HK5eSMxNsk8TzV0p

Also about surface area... most aftermarket intercoolers for n54 have the same frontal area... 210mm high with the same width... starting from ebay intercoolers up to Wagner and CSF... Even EVO1 and EVO2 have the same frontal area, same height.. So does CSF intercooler... only differences are in constuction and somewhat in thickness... evo1 is 130mm thick CSF is 140mm and EVO2 is 150mm thick...
Yes there are bigger ones that require cutting to fit and so on... but those are not meant to be used with stock turbos...

Or you could and then crank the tune up, demand too much boost from those stock turbos, spin them up too much so they lose their reliability and fail soon after, which will put you on the path toward uprated turbos anyway...

Now do i care which version i have installed? NO.

What i care about is that my IAT-s stay low. It doesnt matter how, with which type of cooler... only the end result of IAT-s staying low matters And they do absolutely stay low just fine with this EVO1 so far.

i think this intercooler construction type discussion is just as pointless as which tyre someone prefers or which engine oil they prefer...
If something works for you, your setup and driving habits and you like it... Great! Each their own... There are multiple paths to achieve similar goal.

[B21]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It depends on nothing. The EVO 1 is just too small, and doesn't do anything beyond being over priced and performing worse than other options.

I've researched intercoolers extensively and here is what I found:

Bar and plate is absolutely superior to tube and fin
- They are more durable
- There are more options (easily scalable)
- While tube and fin SHOULD cost less, bar and plate options cost less
- Have more internal Surface area for better convection cooling

Things that aren't real:
-Tube and fins cooling down quicker - Though they do heat up quicker because they have less thermal mass
- Larger intercoolers causing turbo lag (within reason)


Things that are real:
- Tube and fin do weigh less than a comparable bar and plate cooler, but again this means they have less thermal capacity, hold less heat and heat up quicker.
- Tube and fin have less internal restriction, but it typically amounts to about literally a handful of whp, and about 1% or so WGDC - also, it means they don't cool as well.

I afraid I'll just have to disagree with you..I've used the stock and Evo 1 on my 304 BHP N20 powered E89 and stock, Evo 1 and Evo 3 on my variously 343, 399, 546 BHP N54.

The Evo 1 was markedly cooler running than the stock FMIC in all cases.

In the UK climate there was never any concerns on seriously elevated IATs from the Wagner Evo1 unlike the stock FMIC.

Here are the Evo 1 and Evo 3 data logs..unfortunately not able to normalise for changes in FMIC but as you can see both FMIC do a very good job of keeping IATs stable..

Also here's the vendors IAT peformance chart.

Of course that's excluding the much pressure pressure flow on the Evo 1 vs stock.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good opinion..

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by B21

I afraid I'll just have to disagree with you..I've used the stock and Evo 1 on my 304 BHP N20 powered E89 and stock, Evo 1 and Evo 3 on my variously 343, 399, 546 BHP N54.

The Evo 1 was markedly cooler running than the stock FMIC in all cases.

In the UK climate there was never any concerns on seriously elevated IATs from the Wagner Evo1 unlike the stock FMIC.

Here are the Evo 1 and Evo 3 data logs..unfortunately not able to normalise for changes in FMIC but as you can see both FMIC do a very good job of keeping IATs stable..

Also here's the vendors IAT peformance chart.

Of course that's excluding the much pressure pressure flow on the Evo 1 vs stock.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good opinion..

You didn't show me anything beside IAT movement. What's the ambient temperature in that log?

I've compared intercoolers before - there is plently of data (even from Wagner themselves) showing their intercoolers are overpriced garbage.

Here is a comparison between a Race intercooler and a Evo 1:

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I took some time to compare my logs to [another] - an Evo 1 (IE, small intercooler with low internal restriction)

It's also on par or even lower than the Wagner Evo 1 that John is using and I believe he has an inlet and intake like I do.

Check the WGDC at 6000RPM - we are all similar boost levels. Check 4th gear as well.

mine:
https://datazap.me/u/amuroray/milvs-...-33-40&solo=40


John's:
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

Evo 2 vs a Bar and plate core (street and track)

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post23550252

In both instances - the Evo Series intercoolers fall short in cooling and cost 2-3 times as much as comparable intercoolers. But don't let facts stand in the way of your own opinions.

[AmuroRay]

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...16&postcount=3

Evo 1 vs stock.


I'm just pointing this out because it IATs were brought up at the beginning of the thread. If you want to spend more, that's fine.

[B21]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...16&postcount=3

Evo 1 vs stock.


I'm just pointing this out because it IATs were brought up at the beginning of the thread. If you want to spend more, that's fine.

The thread is on a N55 from 2014..not particularly temporally relevant..

However the same poster later said

I personally think Fmic is the best mod I ever did .. Car pulls deff harder on top .. And consistent .. Before after one pull I felt like my car went to map 0 .. It will just heat soak so fast... Now I can do 3 -5 pulls and they all identically pulling hard ..



But from 2019..

FYI- I've got a Wagner Competition EVO1 and am running BootMod3 Stage2 93 Octane. Quick response and no sign of the heat soak I was getting with the stock intercooler and the standard MPPK tune.

Or


My decision to go with the EVO I competition is based on the following (after reading all the major IC threads on this forum and the 2 series forum):

1) Consistent fitment and quality. That is #1 to me.
2) Design - fin and tube (fast recovery for street driving)
3) Driving style and lack of track driving
4) My observed IATs compared to TONS of logs posted by IC users on these forums.
5) I'm not adding any more power. ~370whp/390wtq is fine for me.
6) Cost is non-issue for me. Fitment and quality are WAY more important. It's why I spent $1,500 on my HJS DP.

I've logged my IATs quite often over the past 2 years and compared my data to others on the forums. I see absolutely no need to go with a larger IC for my mods and the driving I do. I'll never do three back to back pulls on the highway. When I'm running B roads, I'm not doing heavy throttle all the time. I rarely beat on my car when it's 80+ degrees out because regardless of cooling, the density altitude conditions reduce power and increase lag, upgraded IC or not. All I'm looking for is something that might be 20%+ better than stock and has fast recovery.

Or..

I'm not interested in the Wagner because of the name. I'm interested because they appear (based on reviews) have some of the best build quality on the market. They are TUV and ISO 9002 certified. I'm familiar with ISO 9002 (QA/QC) certification because of my line of work and I know how hard it is to get it and maintain it. I'm not aware of other IC makers being both TUV and ISO certified.

Or

We have seen a lot of independent testing and got lots of positive feedback from our customers
Wagner FMIC offers a noticeable upgrade over stock













I see you have a fan here from your many posts poo pooing the Evo 1


I know your thoughts on the Wagner products as your posts and opinions are scattered throughout most of the intercooler threads. You seem to hang your hat on this one piece of log data to make your case. You also seem to think that a difference of 5 to 10 degrees less cooling between a Wagner tube and fin IC is terrible compared to a more common bad and plate IC. I'm trying be rude at all, but I don't find this one log to be representative of the EVO I Competition as a whole based on my research.


Anyway I’m now bored as it seems you are some form of troll that for unknown reasons has a downer on Wagner..TTFN

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by B21

The thread is on a N55 from 2014..not particularly temporally relevant..

However the same poster later said

I personally think Fmic is the best mod I ever did .. Car pulls deff harder on top .. And consistent .. Before after one pull I felt like my car went to map 0 .. It will just heat soak so fast... Now I can do 3 -5 pulls and they all identically pulling hard ..



But from 2019..

FYI- I've got a Wagner Competition EVO1 and am running BootMod3 Stage2 93 Octane. Quick response and no sign of the heat soak I was getting with the stock intercooler and the standard MPPK tune.

Or


My decision to go with the EVO I competition is based on the following (after reading all the major IC threads on this forum and the 2 series forum):

1) Consistent fitment and quality. That is #1 to me.
2) Design - fin and tube (fast recovery for street driving)
3) Driving style and lack of track driving
4) My observed IATs compared to TONS of logs posted by IC users on these forums.
5) I'm not adding any more power. ~370whp/390wtq is fine for me.
6) Cost is non-issue for me. Fitment and quality are WAY more important. It's why I spent $1,500 on my HJS DP.

I've logged my IATs quite often over the past 2 years and compared my data to others on the forums. I see absolutely no need to go with a larger IC for my mods and the driving I do. I'll never do three back to back pulls on the highway. When I'm running B roads, I'm not doing heavy throttle all the time. I rarely beat on my car when it's 80+ degrees out because regardless of cooling, the density altitude conditions reduce power and increase lag, upgraded IC or not. All I'm looking for is something that might be 20%+ better than stock and has fast recovery.

Or..

I'm not interested in the Wagner because of the name. I'm interested because they appear (based on reviews) have some of the best build quality on the market. They are TUV and ISO 9002 certified. I'm familiar with ISO 9002 (QA/QC) certification because of my line of work and I know how hard it is to get it and maintain it. I'm not aware of other IC makers being both TUV and ISO certified.

Or

We have seen a lot of independent testing and got lots of positive feedback from our customers
Wagner FMIC offers a noticeable upgrade over stock













I see you have a fan here from your many posts poo pooing the Evo 1


I know your thoughts on the Wagner products as your posts and opinions are scattered throughout most of the intercooler threads. You seem to hang your hat on this one piece of log data to make your case. You also seem to think that a difference of 5 to 10 degrees less cooling between a Wagner tube and fin IC is terrible compared to a more common bad and plate IC. I'm trying be rude at all, but I don't find this one log to be representative of the EVO I Competition as a whole based on my research.


Anyway I’m now bored as it seems you are some form of troll that for unknown reasons has a downer on Wagner..TTFN

My guy - the Evo1 is the same basic core carried over from the E series cars - it's been unchanged since 2014. The graph overlay vs stock shows that it's only good for a single gear pull. I would not recommend this intercooler for anyone who is tuned - or at all honesty. It's too expensive for what it is: a mild upgrade.

You'll see on the video below, he's at 60F deltas over ambient when track driving with this intercooler:

If you check the links I posted before, you can also see the Evo 2 get stomped on by the ATM intercooler with is 13/fin per inch fin density.


Finally, You can see my comparison of the VRSF race which I own in 85F weather vs the Evo 1 in 60F weather.


Why are you going so far to defend a product? If anything, you should be upset that Wagner is selling bad products for a premium.

[KennyP]

For people in Europe Wagner isnt that much more expensive than say VRSF from the States... in some cases its even a cheaper option...

say i want to buy the smallest cheapest 5inch intercooler from VRSF website... 380usd sounds cheap right?
ok add shipping of 223 usd to where im at... now price is at 603.47 usd...
now comes the import fees... +20% and probably a bit even more... so that intercooler ends up costing 725 usd... thats about 680 euros...

Now if i go and order a brand new EVO 1 from Wagner german website..
494 eur+ shipping thats only 37 eur... and no import tax since its within EU...
thats 531eur in total... or 568 USD...

so Wagner is actually a cheaper option here ...
Even from a rare EU vendor thats sells vrsf 5'' its like 700 eur

VRSF 7.5 inch HD version costs to me here with shipping and tax 1221.6 USD / 1142EUR
while i could get EVO2 Comp for 1080 EUR
or i could get that huge EVO3 for 1292 EUR

So if you want a cheap upgrade for a mildly tuned car Wagner evo1 is cheaper here... its also cheaper than CSF....

And if you want more then theres EVO2 Comp that is still cheaper than VRSF 7.5 hd...
or if you want to go big then for just a bit more than that 7.5'' could get that huge EVO3 that was said on some spool street forum comparison to be 3-5C degrees cooler that vrsf 7.5...

You guys in the States are lucky with your cheap and wide selection of intercoolers, cheap downpipes and other parts...
In EU parts availabiliy is not that good... and for example in Germany every car mod part you put on a car has to have that TÜV Certificate... doesnt matter if its intercooler, coilovers or i believe even aftermarket wheels...
Wagner has that TÜV cert, so does KW coilovers for example..

So german webshops dont even bother importing and listing any of the stuff you have in the states... because they simply arent roadlegal there....
OtherEU countries are also hard to find stuff... and even if someone decides to import something it still ends up conciderably higher price.

Before UK was part of EU and it was a good place to get parts from... lots of online shops and nice selection... but now UK has the same tax on its goods as the States.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by KennyP

For people in Europe Wagner isnt that much more expensive than say VRSF from the States... in some cases its even a cheaper option...

say i want to buy the smallest cheapest 5inch intercooler from VRSF website... 380usd sounds cheap right?
ok add shipping of 223 usd to where im at... now price is at 603.47 usd...
now comes the import fees... +20% and probably a bit even more... so that intercooler ends up costing 725 usd... thats about 680 euros...

Now if i go and order a brand new EVO 1 from Wagner german website..
494 eur+ shipping thats only 37 eur... and no import tax since its within EU...
thats 531eur in total... or 568 USD...

That's absolutely insane, and I didn't really consider import taxes? What about using European supplier of parts or brands? But I have actually seen UK based suppliers who have the VRSF in stock to sell:

https://performancem.co.uk/choose-yo...-35is-e89-n54/

Originally Posted by KennyP

so Wagner is actually a cheaper option here ...
Even from a rare EU vendor thats sells vrsf 5'' its like 700 eur

VRSF 7.5 inch HD version costs to me here with shipping and tax 1221.6 USD / 1142EUR
while i could get EVO2 Comp for 1080 EUR
or i could get that huge EVO3 for 1292 EUR

So if you want a cheap upgrade for a mildly tuned car Wagner evo1 is cheaper here... its also cheaper than CSF....

And if you want more then theres EVO2 Comp that is still cheaper than VRSF 7.5 hd...
or if you want to go big then for just a bit more than that 7.5'' could get that huge EVO3 that was said on some spool street forum comparison to be 3-5C degrees cooler that vrsf 7.5...

You must be thinking of this thread:
-------------street.com/threads/z4-anyone-running-vrsf-7-5-stepped-race-intercooler-fmic.6754/

The person in question was running the non stepped VRSF core - basically less than a half of the frontal surface area. I don't believe the Evo 3 it's a better cooler than the VRSF race, as the guys (on the F chassis) with the EVO 3 are 10-15F higher in their temps compared to the VRSF.

But there are other vendors, like MAD and BMS who sell similar cores, so that could be an option.

Originally Posted by KennyP

You guys in the States are lucky with your cheap and wide selection of intercoolers, cheap downpipes and other parts...
In EU parts availabiliy is not that good... and for example in Germany every car mod part you put on a car has to have that TÜV Certificate... doesnt matter if its intercooler, coilovers or i believe even aftermarket wheels...
Wagner has that TÜV cert, so does KW coilovers for example..

So german webshops dont even bother importing and listing any of the stuff you have in the states... because they simply arent roadlegal there....
OtherEU countries are also hard to find stuff... and even if someone decides to import something it still ends up conciderably higher price.

Before UK was part of EU and it was a good place to get parts from... lots of online shops and nice selection... but now UK has the same tax on its goods as the States.

You know, I have to apologize, because I am talking from a position of privilege and didn't know about the taxes and lack of selection.