ticking noise from cold engine....again?

[lusebra]

Originally Posted by teagueAMX

Note my comment from before, below.
Actually the 2nd video sounded pretty good - not sure if I missed something, but that was definitely normal sounding. As previously stated, the double VANOS valve train is really quite complicated is and is a little noisy even after it's warmed up.

Yes, the second video sounded pretty good, I agree....but did you listen the sound at cold starting ? Here you can listen the noise with the bonnet opened
http://gallery.me.com/lusebra#100102

What do you think about this ? I can't believe that the engine on Z4 has problems. It should be a serious blow to the credibility of BMW. I am confident and hope that what we are complaining is not true and it is only an emotional exaggeration of inexeperienced people.

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

not the best video ever made, but you can hear the ticking noise starting when the engine change rpm.....

Those sounds are interesting but I still think it's your valvetrain. For peace of mind, you should take it to your dealer and insist on leaving it overnight so they can listen to the sound when started fully cold. Just a guess, but they are going to tell you it's normal (for a BMW with double VANOS) which is likely true.

BMW is deadicated to some interesting technologies that they claim provide efficiency gains, but I find somewhat questionable and think they're more marketing hype than real engineering science. One such technology is the weird double knuckle lower wishbone front suspension. Another is Valvetronic and the third is VANOS. The concept behind VANOS is good: vary valve timing opening to save fuel most of the time but have a nice horsepower cushion when you need it. But, Porsche does the same thing and their valve train is far less complicated and has only a few extra parts to accomplish the same thing.

Each VANOS technology cylinder valve (4 per cyclinder) has about 10 or 15 additional parts that you wouldn't see on a normal dual overhead camshaft engine. The sound you're hearing is all those parts clanking around waiting to warm up to normal operating temp to achieve operational tolerances. Once it's warmed up it sounds like a smooth running machine.

[Memphis1]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

not the best video ever made, but you can hear the ticking noise starting when the engine change rpm.....

hey sisco, there's two ticking sounds coming from your engine bay, the louder (slower) of the two is not normal, the softer (quicker, most likely VANOS) of the two is. having said that, it might not be the engine, but a heat shield from the manifold that's loose.

[siscobmw]

the video was taken inside my garage with 3 wall around the car, so the sound is really amplified .....
I will try later to do a better video....
Now I am at toronto airport, waiting for the flight back to italy.....
Francesco

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by memphis2012

hey sisco, there's two ticking sounds coming from your engine bay, the louder (slower) of the two is not normal, the softer (quicker, most likely VANOS) of the two is. having said that, it might not be the engine, but a heat shield from the manifold that's loose.

memphis2012 I don't disagree with you as that one sound is very loud. You'll note I suggested he take it to the dealer just be sure. After reading your post I went back and listened to siscobmw's vid again and have to say all those sounds seem very rhythmic, very mechanical to my ear - maybe I'm going deaf .

Keep in mind that siscobmw says they all smooth out once the engine is warm (see quote below). The consistency of the sounds and that they go away once the engine is warm make me think it's his valve train, but I think when he posts his next vid without the echos or amplification we'll have a better idea.

I think he ought to have to take it to the dealer for a look see regardless so that in the event something does happen in the future it shows he was diligent and not neglectful. FWIW

Originally Posted by siscobmw

when my engine is warmed up is really quiet, I hear only the belt rotating on its pulley

[siscobmw]

teagueamx, I read also a long long post you linked, and I thank you again......but valvetrain noise seems to be there also when the engine is warm and they needed a lifter bleed procedure to resolve the problem.the bleed procedure has to be made with warm engine and I think that the next morning our"italian" problem(as it seems)will arise again, as I believe is not valvetrain , but vanos related,I get close to the engine bay and the noise is far louder near front ot head....
anyway monday I booked a big inspection for my car....I told 'em to keep the car also one month , but :
1 if this sound is normal(i suggest everyone to make a video of hisown car and compare it, in order to recognize what is the background noise and the "culprit noise"...in every video there's a John Deere/Massey Ferguson noise that is not doing justice to our bmws)
dealer has to give me a signed piece of paper declaring that this sound when cold is up to engine spec;
2 if there's something wrong , dealer has to get this problem fixed , or change the whole engine...with a 1900kms car I don't really like to have a "half-redone" engine....
the bad is that I have to be light on my right foot for the second summer, with a new engine....And I planned a nurburgring tour with my friends.....Grr...
Francesco

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

teagueamx, I read also a long long post you linked, and I thank you again......but valvetrain noise seems to be there also when the engine is warm and they needed a lifter bleed procedure to resolve the problem.the bleed procedure has to be made with warm engine and I think that the next morning our"italian" problem(as it seems)will arise again, as I believe is not valvetrain , but vanos related,I get close to the engine bay and the noise is far louder near front ot head....
anyway monday I booked a big inspection for my car....I told 'em to keep the car also one month , but :
1 if this sound is normal(i suggest everyone to make a video of hisown car and compare it, in order to recognize what is the background noise and the "culprit noise"...in every video there's a John Deere/Massey Ferguson noise that is not doing justice to our bmws)
dealer has to give me a signed piece of paper declaring that this sound when cold is up to engine spec;
2 if there's something wrong , dealer has to get this problem fixed , or change the whole engine...with a 1900kms car I don't really like to have a "half-redone" engine....
the bad is that I have to be light on my right foot for the second summer, with a new engine....And I planned a nurburgring tour with my friends.....Grr...
Francesco

You have a good plan and I agree, if the sound is there after the car is warm you have a problem. My observation was based on the limited sound quality of the video and the assumption the sound went away when the engine is warm.

Best of luck to you and keep us posted and I'm curious about the dealer's diagonosis regardless.

[siscobmw]

when engine is warm,a little ticking,like every engone in the world, more or less.....
Monday or tuesday I let you know what the dealer's diagnosis is ....
have a good weekend boys!
SiSco

[siscobmw]

Phoned today my dealer, they told me that this morning they heard the engine and that they keep the car for a better diagnosis and they are called a BMW inspector to hear the noise and inspect the engine....
I will stay tuned....

the mechanic assured me: " if the noise goes away as soon as the engine warms up, it sshould'nt be a bad thing"

mmh.....Teague told me the same thing weeks ago....

[teagueAMX]

So how did it go for you and what was their diagnosis?

[siscobmw]

got the car yesterday...
BMW knows this problem, but it is a "comfort issue",as they stated,not a mechanical issue....the believe they not recall affected cars, they fix this ticking noise at first service....the car has only a comfort decrease due to this ticking noise....at the moment they don't know the real culprit of this issue, but they assured me the car is anyway ok...
Francesco

[SHADOW4]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

got the car yesterday...
BMW knows this problem, but it is a "comfort issue",as they stated,not a mechanical issue....the believe they not recall affected cars, they fix this ticking noise at first service....the car has only a comfort decrease due to this ticking noise....at the moment they don't know the real culprit of this issue, but they assured me the car is anyway ok...
Francesco

That clanking that starts at 1'13" and peaks at about 1'31" (rattles uneven to rpm) still sound very wrong to me.

I'm no expert on BMW engines but have had a few cars and rebuilt straight fours, sixies and V8;s both for fun and for need.

You think the engine don't sound right and that is probably true. BMW can afford to take a chans with your engine, can you?

What is the price tag for "comfort"?

Maby BMW should offer you an extended engine warranty (on paper), if it's just an "comfort issue"! For your pease of mind, so you can ENJOY?

Don't give up!

Try to find another Z4, put yourself in between and listen.

I get a feeling of discomfort about my delivery in a few weeks..........

I'm actually upset of watching that video and hearing what BMW says.

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

got the car yesterday...
BMW knows this problem, but it is a "comfort issue", as they stated, not a mechanical issue....the believe they not recall affected cars, they fix this ticking noise at first service....the car has only a comfort decrease due to this ticking noise....at the moment they don't know the real culprit of this issue, but they assured me the car is anyway ok...
Francesco

If I'm reading you correctly, you dealership is saying it's a little bit louder than normal but it's not a mechanical problem, but rather an annoyance. Additionally, they will make some kind of adjustment at your next normally schedule service. Is this correct?

It's interesting, just today I was watching a 'tube video that had a BMW in it and I could hear the engine sound and it reminded me of the problem you're having. All cars used to sound that way up until the 1950's and even some regular cars into the 1960's. Hydraulic valve lifters replaced solid valve lifters and "tappets" which required regular adjustment.

BMW's VANOS assembly is far more complicated and had many more parts than a standard dual camshaft setup and that accounts for the extra noise. But, they are doing it to give the owner the best of both worlds –good fuel mileage and a higher total engine output when you really step on the “go fast” pedal. If memory serves me correctly, BMW uses shims to adjust VANOS mechanical clearances. More than likely they plan to partially disassemble the cylinder head to replace the shims, which should quite it somewhat, at least after the engine has warmed up. You’ll still hear the noise when the engine is cold.

Even though this is very annoying and an expensive car like a Z4 shouldn’t make that much noise, the thing to keep in mind is that your warranty has you fully covered. Even if something does go wrong they have to fix it, especially now since you brought it to their attention by making them keep it overnight. My sense is the dealer is telling you the truth at this point. I wouldn’t worry about for now, but if things change like if it starts making more noise or if starts to run rough, those are signs there is a significant problem.

My advice – don’t be afraid to drive it hard - at least as often as you would have anyway. It’s going to do one of two things – more than likely it will take it and keep going OK, or if there is a problem it will develop sooner so that the dealer has to it fix sooner rather later.

Best of wish to you. Hope it helps. FWIW

[siscobmw]

I have a 4 years warranty on engine, so I am not afraid to drive it hard, or take it back with angry to the dealer.....
Interestingly,today I was watching bmw videos on the tube , too......but the sound was coming from the valve cover.....on my car it seems a noise coming fron the very front of the engine.....mmh....
I also saw a video you suggested me....the m5 e60....it's like a diesel when cold.....
mmh....
anyway I do some mile with low speed and revs....just wait for the engine to warm up (and shut up)....and I use it as normal....
thank you for your support guys....
never found a forum as useful and good as this...
Francesco

[Z4Andy]

I to had a slight ticking noise that I reported to the dealer but it has for now become almost inaudible.

Your car on the other hand sounds very worrying indeed. I hope you get it sorted sooner rather than later.

Is 4 years the law in your country for warranty?

[zEdP]

As some of you known, I have posted this issue july last year.

http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280937

My sound has changed after ~13000km. The ticking sound is gone. The engine sound a little bit raw when cold started, but not that I get worried about it.

EdP

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by zEdP

As some of you known, I have posted this issue july last year.

http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280937

My sound has changed after ~13000km. The ticking sound is gone. The engine sound a little bit raw when cold started, but not that I get worried about it.

EdP

I remember that post. I have a feeling the dealer technician is saying to siscobmw to wait a little while like your case, it got quieter with use. This could be called in the US letting the parts "seat".

Basically speaking it means they wear down a little bit from being brand new, and as that happens some of the parts get smoother, they find their "grove" etc., and the engine becomes more efficient with time because things fit together better. I think that it interesting that BMW has a regular engine break-in procedure, where US manufactures have dropped their break-in procedures. Years ago, the last GM product I bought had a zero break-in procedure which made me wonder what that was all about.

It says something else about the different ideas on how to build an engine. US cars are pretty much throw away whereas a European car is something that people expect to own for many years - at least that used to the case. That's not so true anymore with leases but the idea is still the same.

As mentioned, engines used to be nosier and I think that BMW is more "old school" on some things. We've all gotten used to the Japanese way of doing things - a couple of weeks ago I was standing next to a new Honda that idling. It was so quite I had to put my ear right next to the fender to hear the engine running.

[siscobmw]

yesterday i started to drive my car a bit harder.....when the engone was idling you cannot barely hear the engine.....better than before when engine was really warm.....
maybe the more I press the right pedal , the better it goes...and the quieter the engone runs....
SiSco

[siscobmw]

anyway in Italy we have 2 years warranty, as steted by European rules, then 2 more from bmw about every lubrificated part of the car, (engine transmission, steering, differential......).

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

yesterday i started to drive my car a bit harder.....when the engone was idling you cannot barely hear the engine.....better than before when engine was really warm.....
maybe the more I press the right pedal , the better it goes...and the quieter the engone runs....
SiSco

I think that's a good plan. BMW are made to rev!

Listen to this 'tube video of a Z4 M on the track. It doesn't have the same engine as your 30i, but it is an inline non-turbo. The video is boring up to about 40 seconds, but then the sound of the engine is great. Listen again at about 1:12 seconds. Notice it's not an exhaust sound you hear, but the mechanical sound of the 3.2L engine at high rev's - I swear that's the sound of BMW VANOS valve train singing away!

Originally Posted by siscobmw

anyway in Italy we have 2 years warranty, as steted by European rules, then 2 more from bmw about every lubrificated part of the car, (engine transmission, steering, differential......).

I wasn't aware that BMW's standard warranty for Italy is shorter than ours in the states. Does it cover free maintenance or do you have to pay for it?

I don't think your engine has a problem, but regardless, all the more reason to find out sooner than later. Every once in a while drive it hard and have fun!

[siscobmw]

every maintenance is not free....
I pay also for oil fillup....:-)
Francesco


PS: I see the video then I let yopu know later....

[kioko12]

Originally Posted by siscobmw

not the best video ever made, but you can hear the ticking noise starting when the engine change rpm.....

Wow, that is definitely not normal. I heard a very similar noise in my older 2006 Z4 (3.0i) and I thought it was the vanos wearing out. It had slightly over 40K miles. I'd have that checked out...