M ownership not exclusive enough anymore

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Aapparition90

People said that about Porsche with macan and cayenne. Its the most popular 100 k + suv vehicle i see on roads here (ranger rover excluded). In return it helps Porsche build things like the gt3's etc. No way they would be where they are today without them.
Its a calculation of profit made from exclusivity vs profit to simplify it

Well except that BMW doesn't build anything very interesting. Their most exotic motor is that lazy V12. The S63Tu is probably the most extreme. And even then it's certainly not fit for a hardcore sports car.

I hear this all the time. "But the Cayenne lets Porsche make the XYZ". Yes. I agree. But BMW doesn't have an XYZ. They've got the M5; an AWD, turbo, 8sp automatic heavy sedan. Sure the M8 is coming but it'll just be a bigger version of the M5. So as far as a reason for M brand dilution, I don't feel like you've made a sound point there.

That said I don't are about brand dilution. It allowed the M2 to exist which is great. If someone wants an m240i that's cool as well. Exclusivity is better built than bought IMO; or restored. Want to be exclusive? Restore an E39 M5 or an E46 M3 CSL.

[Aapparition90]

dude are you completely forgetting about i8 etc, even that aside for a bit bmw does not have a vw parts bin and outsourcing. Everything is more expensive from R &D to production so makes sense they are not making more standalone platform cars to compete with porsche and honestly they wont beat Porsche at their own game so no point drowning money in that direction, Bmw I is where the money is probably going.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by stefan

Well except that BMW doesn't build anything very interesting. Their most exotic motor is that lazy V12. The S63Tu is probably the most extreme. And even then it's certainly not fit for a hardcore sports car.

I hear this all the time. "But the Cayenne lets Porsche make the XYZ". Yes. I agree. But BMW doesn't have an XYZ. They've got the M5; an AWD, turbo, 8sp automatic heavy sedan. Sure the M8 is coming but it'll just be a bigger version of the M5. So as far as a reason for M brand dilution, I don't feel like you've made a sound point there.

That said I don't are about brand dilution. It allowed the M2 to exist which is great. If someone wants an m240i that's cool as well. Exclusivity is better built than bought IMO; or restored. Want to be exclusive? Restore an E39 M5 or an E46 M3 CSL.

The new M5 is pretty beast

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Aapparition90

dude are you completely forgetting about i8 etc, even that aside for a bit bmw does not have a vw parts bin and outsourcing. Everything is more expensive from R &D to production so makes sense they are not making more standalone platform cars to compete with porsche and honestly they wont beat Porsche at their own game so no point drowning money in that direction, Bmw I is where the money is probably going.

You are forgetting that the i8 needs no justification whatsoever. It's a tiny turbo motor and batteries. Fits the emissions profile, the overall brand direction.

The example used was that the Cayenne was built in order to allow for engineers to build cars like the GT3. The GT3 does nothing for the brand's emissions or fuel consumption rating and caters ONLY to enthusiasts. My point is you can't excuse monstrosities like the i3 under the basis that BMW is building hardcore vehicles for enthusiasts. They're not. Hell my M2 gets worse gas mileage than my E46 M3 did, no turbos needed. But I'm sure it meets some EPA standards.

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

The new M5 is pretty beast

It is, but I don't know who it's for and wouldn't consider it an enthusiast car, track car, or a driver-focused car. It's a bit of a land yacht.

[JLS_397K]

Although I can agree with the dilution of the "M" brand being that it seems like they slap it to the top model of every series; mind you that AMG is doing the same; there will be other ways to be exclusive. BMW came out with their design ideas that every "///M" car should have such as quad exhaust, mirror shape, and power dome hoods, etc.
Let alone all the small business modification companies that are popping up (HRE, Brixton Forge, RKP, 3D Japan, Modcarbon, IND, etc) to add just a little more individualism.


True car enthusiast will always know the difference. Youtube and mass media will show us the differences. These cars are like our luxurious sleepers. None of these cars including Merc and Audi are super exotic, that is why we still have interest in Mclaren, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Koenigsegg.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by JLS_397K

Although I can agree with the dilution of the "M" brand being that it seems like they slap it to the top model of every series; mind you that AMG is doing the same; there will be other ways to be exclusive. BMW came out with their design ideas that every "///M" car should have such as quad exhaust, mirror shape, and power dome hoods, etc.
Let alone all the small business modification companies that are popping up (HRE, Brixton Forge, RKP, 3D Japan, Modcarbon, IND, etc) to add just a little more individualism.


True car enthusiast will always know the difference. Youtube and mass media will show us the differences. These cars are like our luxurious sleepers. None of these cars including Merc and Audi are super exotic, that is why we still have interest in Mclaren, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Koenigsegg.

Hmm. Our M2s don’t have M mirrors or a power dome hood. But it is still the best M car that I have owned.

[JLS_397K]

Originally Posted by DanG

Hmm. Our M2s don’t have M mirrors or a power dome hood. But it is still the best M car that I have owned.

UNFORTUNATELY , BMW decide that idea after debut of M2, after all the uproar. granted the M2 doesn't have a "S55" motor either. But it definitely is a good start to bring back simplicity of track days, granted all the electrical nannies.

[Spa2k]

Where does it say that in order to be an "official" M that a car produced by BMW has to have a particular engine, a power dome hood and mirrors that look like Spock's ears? It seems to me that if a model goes through the BMW M design, engineering and manufacturing process and has a capital M followed by a single whole number on the tail, it's a real M.

[Performancedieselpros]

How many BMWs these days are running 9s?

I'm just asking because Exclusivity doesn't mean a whole lot when the equation below could have a ">" sign stuck between the 2.....



Frankly, unless the price tag is in the high 300-400k range these days....(excluding cool limited productions like a Dodge Demon)

It doesn't mean shit!

Hell being in Houston, Bentleys, mclarens, and Ferraris are a dime a dozen.....

Exotics to me though are moot, except my buddies 2100hp UGR Avantedor.... on a whole nother level!

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Where does it say that in order to be an "official" M that a car produced by BMW has to have a particular engine, a power dome hood and mirrors that look like Spock's ears? It seems to me that if a model goes through the BMW M design, engineering and manufacturing process and has a capital M followed by a single whole number on the tail, it's a real M.

Must have been a recent convert.

Back when BMW made cars for drivers, rather than cars for people who “drive,” there was a pretty STRICT standard as to what gets called an “M” car. Directive came from BMW Motorsports when they were asked why the X5 LeMans and the 850CSi were not branded M cars, despite both having been fed through the wringers by the wizards at BMW Motorsports.

The head of BMW Motorsports proclaims that, in order to receive a BMW M designation, a BMW MUST have a bespoke high revving naturally aspirated engine, come in a RWD platform, and offered in a manual transmission as standard. The 850CSi, despite a bespoke high-revving engine, Motorsport designed suspension, RWD, came in an automatic. The X5 LeMans had AWD and can’t be purchased with manual transmission. Hence both low production vehicles straight out of BMW Motorsports division were denied M designations.

As time passed, the X5M, X6M, M5, M6, and M3/M4 M2 continued to “buck” the rules originally set forth that made M cars unique. Heck the M2 doesn’t even have a bespoke engine. Right now the only thing that sets the Ms apart from their counterparts are price and body kit, basically. In the golden days, you can “mod” a run of the mill 3 series to your hearts content, and it’ll NEVER be an M.

Today? An M is basically a tune, some bolt-on bumpers and fenders, and some aftermarket coil overs thrown on your average BMW.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Must have been a recent convert.

Back when BMW made cars for drivers, rather than cars for people who “drive,” there was a pretty STRICT standard as to what gets called an “M” car. Directive came from BMW Motorsports when they were asked why the X5 LeMans and the 850CSi were not branded M cars, despite both having been fed through the wringers by the wizards at BMW Motorsports.

The head of BMW Motorsports proclaims that, in order to receive a BMW M designation, a BMW MUST have a bespoke high revving naturally aspirated engine, come in a RWD platform, and offered in a manual transmission as standard. The 850CSi, despite a bespoke high-revving engine, Motorsport designed suspension, RWD, came in an automatic. The X5 LeMans had AWD and can’t be purchased with manual transmission. Hence both low production vehicles straight out of BMW Motorsports division were denied M designations.

As time passed, the X5M, X6M, M5, M6, and M3/M4 M2 continued to “buck” the rules originally set forth that made M cars unique. Heck the M2 doesn’t even have a bespoke engine. Right now the only thing that sets the Ms apart from their counterparts are price and body kit, basically. In the golden days, you can “mod” a run of the mill 3 series to your hearts content, and it’ll NEVER be an M.

Today? An M is basically a tune, some bolt-on bumpers and fenders, and some aftermarket coil overs thrown on your average BMW.

The real world isn't 15 or 20 years ago; memories are great, but they're no longer reality - nor should they be. Everything changes, and so does the marketplace. Today's M cars are no less Ms than any others. BTW, my M ownership goes back to an E36 M3, and my non-M ownership goes back to a 2002, so I've been around the marque awhile.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Must have been a recent convert.

Back when BMW made cars for drivers, rather than cars for people who “drive,” there was a pretty STRICT standard as to what gets called an “M” car. Directive came from BMW Motorsports when they were asked why the X5 LeMans and the 850CSi were not branded M cars, despite both having been fed through the wringers by the wizards at BMW Motorsports.

The head of BMW Motorsports proclaims that, in order to receive a BMW M designation, a BMW MUST have a bespoke high revving naturally aspirated engine, come in a RWD platform, and offered in a manual transmission as standard. The 850CSi, despite a bespoke high-revving engine, Motorsport designed suspension, RWD, came in an automatic. The X5 LeMans had AWD and can’t be purchased with manual transmission. Hence both low production vehicles straight out of BMW Motorsports division were denied M designations.

As time passed, the X5M, X6M, M5, M6, and M3/M4 M2 continued to “buck” the rules originally set forth that made M cars unique. Heck the M2 doesn’t even have a bespoke engine. Right now the only thing that sets the Ms apart from their counterparts are price and body kit, basically. In the golden days, you can “mod” a run of the mill 3 series to your hearts content, and it’ll NEVER be an M.

Today? An M is basically a tune, some bolt-on bumpers and fenders, and some aftermarket coil overs thrown on your average BMW.

You should probably do more research. You can mod your 3-series or 4-series all you want and it will never be an M3/M4. The engines are not the same - different block to begin with. Chassis are not the same.

Based on your comments, the E30 M3 shouldn't have been called an M either. It was just an E30 with a body kit and a tuned 4 cylinder engine from the 315/316/318. Ms are different and they are still as different today as they ever were from the base model.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

The real world isn't 15 or 20 years ago; memories are great, but they're no longer reality - nor should they be. Everything changes, and so does the marketplace. Today's M cars are no less Ms than any others. BTW, my M ownership goes back to an E36 M3, and my non-M ownership goes back to a 2002, so I've been around the marque awhile.

Not everything changes. For a company that "strives" to provide the ultimate driving experience, the pinnacle of automotive engineering principles don't change. Nor should it for their halo brand. Whether or not BMW chooses to stick with bespoke engines, RWD, or providing a manual option for their M cars, principles they used to live by, affects their bottom line little.

And to say "things change," yeah, they do. But VALUES shouldn't. Especially good values, and values that made you UNIQUE to who you are.

Again, bespoke engine unique to M cars, RWD, a manual option offered. These should not be values that would change over time to define what M cars are.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

You should probably do more research. You can mod your 3-series or 4-series all you want and it will never be an M3/M4. The engines are not the same - different block to begin with. Chassis are not the same.

Based on your comments, the E30 M3 shouldn't have been called an M either. It was just an E30 with a body kit and a tuned 4 cylinder engine from the 315/316/318. Ms are different and they are still as different today as they ever were from the base model.

Um, no. Learn to read better. And before you ask me to do my research, do some of your own.

BESPOKE engine. The S14 in the E30 M3 is UNIQUE to the M3. Not just a tune. Yeah it may shared some internals with other 4 cylinders, but by NO MEANS was the mighty S14 a simply "tuned" M42. The S14 is actually derived from the cylinder head of the M88 6 cylinder that was installed in the mighty M1, but with 2 cylinders removed and 2 separate throttle bodies instead of one.

It is as unique as it comes. No other BMWs, M or otherwise, shared that same engine. EVER.

The N55 in the M2 is the same N55 as all the x35 engines that came before it with a tune. That's a FACT. The M2 no longer comes with a bespoke engine unique to itself. And you can bet that next gen M3/M4s will soon follow the same formula, just as the X5M and X6M opened the door to the "no RWD, no M" mandate and the "no auto, no M" mandate.

And don't let BMW's "chassis" designate fool you. The chassis number may be unique, but the frame and underpinnings are all the same. Look it up on RealOEM. Find the M3/M4 of your choice, click on the "body" category and click through ANY of the body part numbers and see how many other BMWs share the same exact body parts. The only thing unique to the M3 and M4 are the exterior body panels (fenders, hood, etc), suspension, and subframe, which has been true of ALL the prior chassis before BMW decided to give M3s and M4s unique chassis numbers (E30, E36, E46, E9x all use the same formula, same body underpinning, different body panels, different suspension and subframe. Again, look it up).

Does NONE of you newer BMW owners know or understand any BMW history in the last 15-20 years? OMFG.

[Performancedieselpros]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Must have been a recent convert.

Back when BMW made cars for drivers, rather than cars for people who “drive,” there was a pretty STRICT standard as to what gets called an “M” car. Directive came from BMW Motorsports when they were asked why the X5 LeMans and the 850CSi were not branded M cars, despite both having been fed through the wringers by the wizards at BMW Motorsports.

The head of BMW Motorsports proclaims that, in order to receive a BMW M designation, a BMW MUST have a bespoke high revving naturally aspirated engine, come in a RWD platform, and offered in a manual transmission as standard. The 850CSi, despite a bespoke high-revving engine, Motorsport designed suspension, RWD, came in an automatic. The X5 LeMans had AWD and can’t be purchased with manual transmission. Hence both low production vehicles straight out of BMW Motorsports division were denied M designations.

As time passed, the X5M, X6M, M5, M6, and M3/M4 M2 continued to “buck” the rules originally set forth that made M cars unique. Heck the M2 doesn’t even have a bespoke engine. Right now the only thing that sets the Ms apart from their counterparts are price and body kit, basically. In the golden days, you can “mod” a run of the mill 3 series to your hearts content, and it’ll NEVER be an M.

Today? An M is basically a tune, some bolt-on bumpers and fenders, and some aftermarket coil overs thrown on your average BMW.

SMH....

Clearly you need to read parts schematics and build sheets better!

I didn't buy my 2014 X6m because it was an M or a BMW for that matter....

I bought it since it was an incredibly well built racing machine that was comfortable to fit my 6'5" goofy ass comfortably. Not a body kit with bolt ons....

I personally don't like non M, and frankly compared to what an 8k lb diesel truck can do.... BMW so called performance is just cute at best.

I wish BMW would quit trying to soften up their body lines to attract more of a female audience, especially with the X line up.... it's dulling down the stature of the vehicle and in my opinion causing BMW to sacrifice quality for quantity. Current styling is lacking any real design and mightaswell be a kia....

[Performancedieselpros]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Um, no. Learn to read better. And before you ask me to do my research, do some of your own.

BESPOKE engine. The S14 in the E30 M3 is UNIQUE to the M3. Not just a tune. Yeah it may shared some internals with other 4 cylinders, but by NO MEANS was the mighty S14 a simply "tuned" M42. The S14 is actually derived from the cylinder head of the M88 6 cylinder that was installed in the mighty M1, but with 2 cylinders removed and 2 separate throttle bodies instead of one.

It is as unique as it comes. No other BMWs, M or otherwise, shared that same engine. EVER.

The N55 in the M2 is the same N55 as all the x35 engines that came before it with a tune. That's a FACT. The M2 no longer comes with a bespoke engine unique to itself. And you can bet that next gen M3/M4s will soon follow the same formula, just as the X5M and X6M opened the door to the "no RWD, no M" mandate and the "no auto, no M" mandate.

And don't let BMW's "chassis" designate fool you. The chassis number may be unique, but the frame and underpinnings are all the same. Look it up on RealOEM. Find the M3/M4 of your choice, click on the "body" category and click through ANY of the body part numbers and see how many other BMWs share the same exact body parts. The only thing unique to the M3 and M4 are the exterior body panels (fenders, hood, etc), suspension, and subframe, which has been true of ALL the prior chassis before BMW decided to give M3s and M4s unique chassis numbers (E30, E36, E46, E9x all use the same formula, same body underpinning, different body panels, different suspension and subframe. Again, look it up).

Does NONE of you newer BMW owners know or understand any BMW history in the last 15-20 years? OMFG.

20yrs ago, the auto industry built some of the ugliest cars to ever grace this planet so it easy to tune out of the brain!

God bless AWD, forced induction, and direct injection..... juuuust saying!

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Um, no. Learn to read better. And before you ask me to do my research, do some of your own.

BESPOKE engine. The S14 in the E30 M3 is UNIQUE to the M3. Not just a tune. Yeah it may shared some internals with other 4 cylinders, but by NO MEANS was the mighty S14 a simply "tuned" M42. The S14 is actually derived from the cylinder head of the M88 6 cylinder that was installed in the mighty M1, but with 2 cylinders removed and 2 separate throttle bodies instead of one.

It is as unique as it comes. No other BMWs, M or otherwise, shared that same engine. EVER.

The N55 in the M2 is the same N55 as all the x35 engines that came before it with a tune. That's a FACT. The M2 no longer comes with a bespoke engine unique to itself. And you can bet that next gen M3/M4s will soon follow the same formula, just as the X5M and X6M opened the door to the "no RWD, no M" mandate and the "no auto, no M" mandate.

And don't let BMW's "chassis" designate fool you. The chassis number may be unique, but the frame and underpinnings are all the same. Look it up on RealOEM. Find the M3/M4 of your choice, click on the "body" category and click through ANY of the body part numbers and see how many other BMWs share the same exact body parts. The only thing unique to the M3 and M4 are the exterior body panels (fenders, hood, etc), suspension, and subframe, which has been true of ALL the prior chassis before BMW decided to give M3s and M4s unique chassis numbers (E30, E36, E46, E9x all use the same formula, same body underpinning, different body panels, different suspension and subframe. Again, look it up).

Does NONE of you newer BMW owners know or understand any BMW history in the last 15-20 years? OMFG.

First, I have owned BMWs for over 40 years (18 owned) and have been a BMW CCA member for almost 40 years and an avid BMW fan. I know a lot about BMWs. Okay, I was mistaken about the S14, but the only other "bespoke" motor was the S65 in the E9X M3.

To me, different underpinnings, suspension, subframe, etc. makes the Ms unique to their base models. A good friend has a 435i Msport and we have done extensive comparisons with my M4. They are not even close to being the same car. YMMV. Cheers

[Performancedieselpros]

and people wonder why BMW is associated with stereotypes......

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by The HACK

<<<Not everything changes.
And to say "things change," yeah, they do. But VALUES shouldn't. Especially good values, and values that made you UNIQUE to who you are.

The M group has the same foundational values today that it's had since the beginning. But it's also continually updated the values that allow it to operate in a fast-changing marketplace - without those, it would be history and a forgotten memory except for automotive book writers and enthusiasts like you.

What's more "M":

• A BMW with a traditional manual transmission that offers more driver involvement but less performance or a BMW with the latest technology DCT and higher performance?
• An E30 M3 or an M2 that will clobber it on the track?
• A new M3 that now has a different overall purpose than the first M3 or a new M4?

A real M enthusiast would say the answers are "all of the above," because it's not up to you or me or anyone else to make that decision for anybody but ourselves.

As I said above, if a model goes through the BMW M design, engineering and manufacturing process and has a capital M followed by a single whole number on the tail, it's a real M.

[chumley]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Not everything changes. For a company that "strives" to provide the ultimate driving experience, the pinnacle of automotive engineering principles don't change. Nor should it for their halo brand. Whether or not BMW chooses to stick with bespoke engines, RWD, or providing a manual option for their M cars, principles they used to live by, affects their bottom line little.

And to say "things change," yeah, they do. But VALUES shouldn't. Especially good values, and values that made you UNIQUE to who you are.

Again, bespoke engine unique to M cars, RWD, a manual option offered. These should not be values that would change over time to define what M cars are.

You're not going to win this one with most of these guys! The bean-counters have taken over the company and while that may or may not be a good thing depending on your perspective, it surely shows in the product. It's hard to imagine that anyone who has followed the cars for years wouldn't see that. Doesn't make them bad cars but it's hard to imagine anyone not thinking they've only done the minimum needed to maintain sales numbers.

As far as exclusivity goes, I think the single biggest destruction of that came with leasing. Renters replacing owners makes the company's bottom line swell but completely eliminates both the exclusivity and the aspiration value of these cars.

I'm not anti lease, but if we are talking about exclusivity, the relative ease of obtaining one pretty much negates any exclusivity.

[Darth One]

well at least this new discussion is far more interesting than the original, dumb premise of the thread.

[Law]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Must have been a recent convert.

Back when BMW made cars for drivers, rather than cars for people who “drive,” there was a pretty STRICT standard as to what gets called an “M” car. Directive came from BMW Motorsports when they were asked why the X5 LeMans and the 850CSi were not branded M cars, despite both having been fed through the wringers by the wizards at BMW Motorsports.

The head of BMW Motorsports proclaims that, in order to receive a BMW M designation, a BMW MUST have a bespoke high revving naturally aspirated engine, come in a RWD platform, and offered in a manual transmission as standard. The 850CSi, despite a bespoke high-revving engine, Motorsport designed suspension, RWD, came in an automatic. The X5 LeMans had AWD and can’t be purchased with manual transmission. Hence both low production vehicles straight out of BMW Motorsports division were denied M designations.

As time passed, the X5M, X6M, M5, M6, and M3/M4 M2 continued to “buck” the rules originally set forth that made M cars unique. Heck the M2 doesn’t even have a bespoke engine. Right now the only thing that sets the Ms apart from their counterparts are price and body kit, basically. In the golden days, you can “mod” a run of the mill 3 series to your hearts content, and it’ll NEVER be an M.

Today? An M is basically a tune, some bolt-on bumpers and fenders, and some aftermarket coil overs thrown on your average BMW.

FWIW you have the right idea, but have the facts wrong.
The 850CSi was only available with a 6-speed manual as the sole transmission choice.
The VIN# of all 850CSi's begin with "WBS", denoting BMW Motorsport GmbH origin.
The reason why the 850CSi wasn't badged as an "M8" can be attributed to two factors:
1) The 8er was more or less designed as a large GT cruiser, even more-so than the original 6er (E24). The 850CSi was seen as too large and too touring focused to be marketed as a "motorsport" vehicle.
2) A more hardcore E31 8-series was still in the works by BMW Motorsport. Of course, this was initially rumored until it was later confirmed when BMW invited the press to view the M8 Prototype. Complete with stripped out interior and a reworked S70 engine yielding 550HP. Yes, 6MT also. Ultimately, it was decided that there wasn't a large enough market for BMW to make money on such a vehicle, and the project was scrapped.



The X5 Le Mans was a BMW Motorsport works vehicle only.
It was not intended for actual production and was stuck in "concept" form only, though the concept was completely functional.
It shared the same S70/3 engine as the BMW V12 LMR race car, which itself is a further development of the S70/2 in the McLaren F1.
The only transmission for the X5 LM was also a 6-speed manual, it was also RWD only, unlike production X5s.