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      09-30-2010, 11:57 AM   #45
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I can see both sides of this argument. However, allowing any company to void warranties due to modification of the original design is really a very slippery slope. Currently the only mod I have on my car is the stubby antenna. Should I not get warranty if my iDrive system fails? I mean I 'modified' the system after all. Who gets to decide what is an OK mod and what isn't? Where do you draw the line? I think the current law of the land has it just right. I should be able to mod my car and unless it is proven that the mod caused the problem the warranty should kick in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbeee View Post
Devils advocate: Although a great number of forum members love modding their vehicles I have always thought to myself that it is not a good idea to mod anything until after the warranty expires. Bearing this in mind I do have Dinan in my new car, specifically because it has warranty and was installed and sold to me by BMW. I dismissed all other power mods because of this advantage, otherwise I would have waited until the end date to do anything.
The cars are designed by the "company" and the "company" warranties that specific design.....
EG:If I take an electrical junction box that has been inspected and certified for use in a Hazardous location such as a hydrocarbon gas rich environment and drill and tap an access hole in that same box, I now have an uncertified box. I can either get the box recertified or I can accept the LIABILITY for any failures, damage or asset losses that may occur in or around that box. I'm sorry to say it but that's just the way it is.

I wish you the best of luck with this issue .
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      09-30-2010, 12:36 PM   #46
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I wish you the best of luck with this issue .
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      09-30-2010, 01:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by VintageBMW View Post
Three things:

1. I accept complete responsibility for any "damage" caused by my wife's mods to the e89 and I will sign an affidavit stating so, BUT the HPFP was not damaged by these mods so fix it dangit! I mean seriously, are they now going to balk on the HPFP because of the power mods? I guess the answer at this time is "maybe" - that is really pathetic. Buy an iS and do not touch it for goodness sake, not even to install an exhaust system.

2. If BMW rejects the warranty on a known defect with the defectively designed HPFP, I will not go away; then "lawyer Vintage" comes out.

3. If 2 above occurs, I will sell the e89 at a loss immediately, buy my wife a Porsche 911S, and then start haunting this forum to bash BMWs at every opportunity even though I am a BMW lifer - that will change if BMW continues down this myopic path. I am thinking 911S Copue or Cabriolet, PDK, Sport PASM, Sport Exhaust (from Porsche), Bose upgrade, Ventilated and Heated Seats, etc. What color combination?
I feel for you and hope you get your issues resolved. I do have similar feelings since I lost 2 rear wheels during my US trip this year with the odometer at near 18,000 KM (11,180 Miles). You may have seen my posts on this issue. The long and short of it is ... It may be slightly off subject here ... still worth mentioning since it is a warranty issue still the same.

A) BMW in Idaho made my purchase a wheel told me to claim warranty in Canada. The excuse was oh our warranty policies in the US and Canada are different. So I took the cracked wheel all the way back to Canada.

B) When BMW in Idaho got my new wheel they directed me to the friendly tire shop down the street. Sorry they said, we don't do this here in our shop (sure I was thinking you sell expensive cars and know how to check and adjust tire pressure, when it comes to delicate alloy wheels you let others handle that shore). The tire shop promptly changed my wheel, however, in the process damaged the wheel that was cracked.

C) During the change out of the driver side rear wheel I found the passenger side wheel also cracked (hairline cracks at that time) in two places. I decided to drive home with that around another 3,000 KM.

D) Back in Canada my BMW dealer changed the passenger side rear wheel under warranty, however, the driver side rear wheel (open crack causing a flat in Idaho) they did not change under warranty. So I am out about $1,000- Canadian with hotel and expenses.

I will drive this car since I like it, however, based upon BMW's reply to my letter I might join you with the bashing every chance I get not only in this forum also in other.

PS 1. Photos of the wheel story can be found in my garage

PS 2. If any of you are wondering ... yes BMW still not responding, I think my case is solid, both wheels cracked they replaced one and not the other. The one they did not replace was damaged in a tire shop they use for there work. If BMW had removed the tire and damaged the wheel with gauge marks (see gauge marks on the wheel in my garage Photo Page 3 ... Photos 3 and 4) then they would have had no choice to replace it forthwith under there warranty and shop liability. They must have insurance for such incidents when handling customers property?

Last edited by Mr. ///M3 RD; 09-30-2010 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Added PS 1 and 2
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      09-30-2010, 01:35 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
Q 1
Yes, the LPFP pressurizes the line leading up to the HPFP. The LPFP, of course, is an electric pump. As soon at the ignition is system is energized "hot" the LPFP starts and pressurizes the line. As soon as the line reaches a certain pressure (around 40 - 50 psi min) it will trip a pressure relay that completes the ignition circuit and the car can start assuming everything else is in order.

A HPFP adds one more layer - it has to build up and maintain a set pressure as well. This is where the long crank times come in - it appears the computer will allow the engine to crank even though there is insufficient pressure at either the LPFP or HPFP levels.

Q 2
Can't tell you for absolute certainty, but I believe a problem in the area would trigger a ECU code and "Check Engine" warning light.

.
Thank you it does make sense now Nice to know what makes her tick
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      09-30-2010, 03:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbeee View Post
Devils advocate: Although a great number of forum members love modding their vehicles I have always thought to myself that it is not a good idea to mod anything until after the warranty expires. Bearing this in mind I do have Dinan in my new car, specifically because it has warranty and was installed and sold to me by BMW. I dismissed all other power mods because of this advantage, otherwise I would have waited until the end date to do anything.
The cars are designed by the "company" and the "company" warranties that specific design.....
EG:If I take an electrical junction box that has been inspected and certified for use in a Hazardous location such as a hydrocarbon gas rich environment and drill and tap an access hole in that same box, I now have an uncertified box. I can either get the box recertified or I can accept the LIABILITY for any failures, damage or asset losses that may occur in or around that box. I'm sorry to say it but that's just the way it is.

I wish you the best of luck with this issue .
I agree with your general thoughts on this issue. Please keep in mind that the fact that BMW will install DINAN power upgrades supports my argument 100%. For example, if I had paid $2,000 plus for a Dinan tune and upcoming intercooler - yes, an FMIC is coming from Dinan (we would have installed Dinan but Dinan had no products for our e89 when we started working on it in February 2010) and the HPFP had failed, the BMW dealer that installed Dinan would have replaced the HPFP with no problems because they know what the world knows, the HPFP is defective in most of our cars. The mods having nothing to do wth it - that is actually in harmony with the law on these issues.

I do not think you are you telling me that if you were BMW that you would not warrant the HPFP when the mods having absolutely ZERO to do with the modifications???

Please keep in mind that when discussing this in person with the dealer today, they told me that "way over 50% of all N54 motors have the HPFP fail" and "the real question for almost all N54 powered cars is when will it fail, not if." Yikes Batman, I think a recall should be mandatory and that I could hang jet engines off the car and it is not related to the DEFECTIVE HPFP.

Sorry for rambling. I think your situation and mine highlight the real issue that has already been identified by some smart people on this thread. BMWNA appears to be looking for absolutely any reason to dump your warranty in these tight economic times. For you they may not because you paid the DEALER $$$ for Dinan. For me they may cancel the warranty because I paid someone else besides the dealer. You have a tune and and FMIC from Dinan (the FMIC was added for arguments sake), I have the same items, but you have a warranty even though your Dinan parts pump out the same power or more.

Again, sorry for rambling. Dinan may warranty your tune ONLY and something it might break, but I know it doesn't warrant the rest of your car. BMWNA can still cancel your warranty too - even your dealer can't control that my friend. What a screw job.

Porsche, Porsche, Porsche - went by the dealer today. The e89 MSRP was about $68k. I know it is a bit of a leap but for $100k maybe the attitude of the company is a little better.
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      09-30-2010, 03:33 PM   #50
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Just a word to the wise: if you're calm and reasonable, yet forceful, there is next to zero chance that BMW will void your warranty on the HPFP. They cannot handle the pressure of potential litigation, and that is where there real issue for them is.
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      09-30-2010, 03:42 PM   #51
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LATEST UPDATE & WARNING: Just came off of the phone with BMW Dealer. They are attempting to void the ENTIRE WARRANTY even though they admit that "the HPFP failure has nothing to do with the mods."

I am unlucky or what? Did I fall down a rabbit hole and end up in BMW hell?

Last edited by Vintage; 09-30-2010 at 03:50 PM.
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      09-30-2010, 05:03 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageBMW View Post
LATEST UPDATE & WARNING: Just came off of the phone with BMW Dealer. They are attempting to void the ENTIRE WARRANTY even though they admit that "the HPFP failure has nothing to do with the mods."

I am unlucky or what? Did I fall down a rabbit hole and end up in BMW hell?
I suggest that you stop dealing with you dealer and start interacting with BMWNA directly. You mods are not cause to void the warranty and they know that. In fact, you dealer may be bs'ing you. If you have to threaten to sue them -- or actually do it -- I would.
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      09-30-2010, 06:09 PM   #53
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+1

Don't waste your time with some a$$hole dealership. Call BMWNA and talk to them directly. Every time I have talked to a rep from BMWNA they have always been friendly and genuinely want to help. They have no interest in pissing you off. Who knows what the dealer told them? Deal with them directly.
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Originally Posted by warden View Post
I suggest that you stop dealing with you dealer and start interacting with BMWNA directly. You mods are not cause to void the warranty and they know that. In fact, you dealer may be bs'ing you. If you have to threaten to sue them -- or actually do it -- I would.
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      09-30-2010, 06:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcw View Post
+1

Don't waste your time with some a$$hole dealership. Call BMWNA and talk to them directly. Every time I have talked to a rep from BMWNA they have always been friendly and genuinely want to help. They have no interest in pissing you off. Who knows what the dealer told them? Deal with them directly.
Exactly. And apologies for the missing "r"s in my post ... misfiring BT keyboard.

Keep us posted. I had similar issues with my 335i -- ended with them paying for two months of my lease.
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      09-30-2010, 07:37 PM   #55
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VintageBMW, after hearing what you are going through, I decided to back off the FMIC install. I spoke to 2 dealerships today and advised not to change out the FMIC with after market part. Both advised that that particular area gets sticky when you start making changes.

I don't want or have the time to deal with service advisor BS like this in the event I have issues with my car.
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      09-30-2010, 08:34 PM   #56
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Vintage,
Sorry to hear that but I am not surprised. I agree with dealing with BMWNA directly. We had an 05 Cooper-S that by 5k miles had been towed to the dealer 5x's. Wife loved the car so we stuck with it until the 5th tow. At that time I contacted the dealer (also a BMW dealer) and told them I wanted to start a Lemon Law case on our car. They pulled the records and said it was not eligible due to the law states it have to be in three times for the same problem and no resolution. Short story was each time it was in it was for the same problem however the service writer wrote it up as a different issue each time. Shame on us for not confirming the paperwork. I immediately posted our entire ordeal on a Mini forum and within 2 days I had a registered letter from MiniUSA outlining how they were going to buy back the car and build us a new one. Moral of my story is to never trust the dealer. As a lawyer you obviously have your bases better covered than most consumers and a letter written on lawfirm stationary goes along way to waking people up.

Don't think for one minute that Porsche is any different regarding aftermarket parts. If they have factory go-fast goodies they will likely only honor a warranty if they install them. Toyota does the same crap. You can buy a Toyota supercharger through the dealer parts department. If they don't install it your warranty is void.

I have played the mod game for more than 20 years. I came to the conclusion that if you play you pay.

Best of luck. I hope you win the battle.
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      09-30-2010, 08:44 PM   #57
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In my long ramble I forgot to add the VW is also having major issues with HPFP's. Many a modded GTi owner have been left out in the cold. It would be interesting to find out if BMW and VW use the same manufacturer for pumps.
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      09-30-2010, 09:17 PM   #58
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mcbeee sounding like an true engineer. LOL That's a process we in the US call UL Testing and Underwriting. One little change and you might as well rip the UL tag right off the item.

I think Vintage's issue is somewhat different. No doubt BMW would love to consign their warranty to oblivion based on any perceived infraction of their policy terms. However, in the US at least we don't let them off the hook that easy. Many here could speak far more authoritatively on the subject, but my understanding is it's up to the manufacture to prove a finding that the modification impacted the normal operation of the unit and thereby resulted in a failure.

That's where Dinan's warranty is so brilliant because his mods do impact the operation of the unit in a number of ways. It's very difficult to trace back a piggyback, heat exchanger or air intake to a fuel pump failure, particularly a HPFP that has a well know history of failure. I'd further state that a fuel pump whether strictly mechanical or electrically powered have a demonstrable range of operation, which is based on RPM, regardless of the horsepower output.

Clearly, BMW's exec's need to pull their collective heads out of their bean counter's collective posteriors on this issue. They have far more to lose than a few hundred or even a couple $1,000's through damage to the good will of their client base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbeee View Post
Devils advocate: Although a great number of forum members love modding their vehicles I have always thought to myself that it is not a good idea to mod anything until after the warranty expires. Bearing this in mind I do have Dinan in my new car, specifically because it has warranty and was installed and sold to me by BMW. I dismissed all other power mods because of this advantage, otherwise I would have waited until the end date to do anything.
The cars are designed by the "company" and the "company" warranties that specific design.....
EG:If I take an electrical junction box that has been inspected and certified for use in a Hazardous location such as a hydrocarbon gas rich environment and drill and tap an access hole in that same box, I now have an uncertified box. I can either get the box recertified or I can accept the LIABILITY for any failures, damage or asset losses that may occur in or around that box. I'm sorry to say it but that's just the way it is.

I wish you the best of luck with this issue .
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Last edited by teagueAMX; 09-30-2010 at 10:12 PM.
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      09-30-2010, 09:34 PM   #59
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I want to make it clear: I have been very direct and honest with the dealer on the mods. I also take full responsibility for any damage they cause and have repeated that to the dealer. However, their position is that if the stereo stops working my FMIC, exhaust, and mods voided the whole warranty. This is a very bad legal position and I doubt they are consulting with their legal department.

I have done a little more unscientific research on the HPFP failure rate . . . two dealers have now said that well over 50% (one said 70% of the N54 cars they see) have had at least one HPFP failure in their life - some have had several. So the real question is, why no recal? I will tell you why, 1) they put the same crappy HPFP back in your car and 2) it would immediately flood the dealerships' service departments and they can't handle the volume. Instead, BMW just waits for yours to fail so that the service load is spread out over time - an awesome company it seems. I think maybe it is time to start pushing this issue with contacts at the Federal level for a recall. That would solve my problem - not that Uncle Sam is a good problem solver.
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      09-30-2010, 09:54 PM   #60
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Vintage, those numbers seem somewhat consistent with my own admittedly unscientific poll here and on another BMW forum.

I'm not sure if this is a rationalization or just my opinion, but sooner or later, if they continue to treat their customers this way it will catch up with them and their sales will gradually decline. Frankly, I think you, Rolf and couple of others should start a sticky thread based on BMW's failures such as these. That would certainly get their attention, plus you know that others have suffered the sames types of losses but never spoke up about it.
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      09-30-2010, 10:01 PM   #61
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I have 2 comments on this thread:

1. I am happy I bought the s30i model
2. I am seriously considering a Benz for my next car.
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      10-01-2010, 08:56 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageBMW View Post
I want to make it clear: I have been very direct and honest with the dealer on the mods. I also take full responsibility for any damage they cause and have repeated that to the dealer. However, their position is that if the stereo stops working my FMIC, exhaust, and mods voided the whole warranty. This is a very bad legal position and I doubt they are consulting with their legal department.
You already know, since you are a lawyer, that under the Magnuson-Moss Act a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty.

It is, indeed a very bad legal position for BMW. You should be able to get this fixed or get a new car under the lemon laws...
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      10-01-2010, 07:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageBMW View Post
LATEST UPDATE & WARNING: Just came off of the phone with BMW Dealer. They are attempting to void the ENTIRE WARRANTY even though they admit that "the HPFP failure has nothing to do with the mods."

I am unlucky or what? Did I fall down a rabbit hole and end up in BMW hell?
let them. you can prove, in bmw own press releases and letters to owners, that this is a known BMW part flaw. they would have to prove it was your fault in spite of their public admissions that it is their problem. you will win.
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      10-01-2010, 08:20 PM   #64
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Unlike you I'm not a lawyer, but this statement is just ludicrous! So by that argument I would void the entire cars warranty if I decide to put snow tires on my car in the winter? Are they listening to themselves? Please, do yourself a favor and a) find a new dealer and b) talk to BMWNA directly. I must say, this is about the most insane statement I have heard from a dealer.
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However, their position is that if the stereo stops working my FMIC, exhaust, and mods voided the whole warranty.
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      10-01-2010, 10:06 PM   #65
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Unlike you I'm not a lawyer, but this statement is just ludicrous! So by that argument I would void the entire cars warranty if I decide to put snow tires on my car in the winter? Are they listening to themselves? Please, do yourself a favor and a) find a new dealer and b) talk to BMWNA directly. I must say, this is about the most insane statement I have heard from a dealer.
I heard a few better ones in the Great State of Idaho at a BMW Dealership;

1) Sorry you only have 2 Options since "WE DO NOT DEAL WITH CANADIAN CARS IN THE US AS FAR AS WARRANTY IS CONCERNED OUR WARRANTY POLICIES ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE CANADIAN ONE" you only have 2 Options open to you a) call Road Side Assistance and they will tow you to the nearest Canadian Dealership (oh yes some 1,000 miles northbound LOL I was thinking) or b) we order you a wheel and you pay us then take the wheel back to Canada or ship it.

and ....

2) When the new wheel arrived (yes I did order the wheel, I figured I best take the "b" option offered to me since "a" might purchase 2 new wheels rather then paying the towing charge LOL) anyway I was then told "SORRY WE DON'T HANDLE WHEEL TIRE WORK THIS IS DONE BY THE TIRE SHOP DOWN THE STREET, WE TAKE YOU THERE" So I followed and watched the friendly tire shop damaged my already cracked wheel.

Something to think about when Canadians make there way down south in a BMW and for our American friends when they venture north in there BMW. Best leave such trips for later when your car no longer is under warranty. If I venture south in the next 3 1/2 years I be sure to take our reliable US build by FORD Jaguar. LOL
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      10-01-2010, 11:04 PM   #66
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I appreciate the support and agree with the collective thoughts on this issue. A serious talk was had Thursday on these points with the dealer and they are reconsidering their position. We shall see early next week, but my point is that I am tired. Not to whine, but I do this crap all day every day in my job and I am good at it - when I am home and off the clock this is the last thing I want to be doing. Battling BMW at almost every turn is tiresome, especially when you have purchased two $65k cars in the past year from the same dealer.
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