stock tires *that* bad?

[tranquility]

(I did a search but nothing relevant came up, in case Memphis pops in here lol.)

Are the stocks that bad? I'm still in my break-in period and not really pushing the car, but I find when I press the gas a bit harder, the rear tires just slip a bit and traction control has to come on? I don't understand how it can lose grip so easily on dry pavement. What gives?

On a related matter, what tires would you recommend when I decide to get rid of the stock ones? I don't really feel too confident pushing the car due to the tires (and also the steering could use some tightening up...not sure if anything can be done about that?).

[MDLFCS]

Don't worry about Memphis. He may bark, but won't bite.

For the most part, the stock tires are not that bad. But my experience from my Garage Queen so far is that they are noisy on worn roads, but almost silent on brand new asphalt. I thought they absorb bumps pretty well, except on the worst bumps and ruts, but if you avoid them like you can possibly be because of the 19 inches anyways, it should be fine.

Many like the Michelin PS2s, or the newer PS3s. Some like the Bridgestones or Continentals.

[Rubber Ducky]

If you have endless funds to waste on tires and also don't mind dealing with a flat many miles from assistance - with no jack - and no spare - then non-RFTs may be for you...

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky

If you have endless funds to waste on tires and also don't mind dealing with a flat many miles from assistance - with no jack - and no spare - then non-RFTs may be for you...

So you feel RFTs are the way to go, and it's not a performance handicap?

[Rubber Ducky]

Originally Posted by tranquility

So you feel RFTs are the way to go, and it's not a performance handicap?

Performance? If you're competing in track events, RFT yes-or-no is irrelevant - you'll be replacing tires regularly and it's not a long drive to the pits. But for real driving on real roads in the real world, whatever differences there might be between RFTs and non-RFTs is pretty much optical: it's in the eye of the beholder and won't intrude in your driving. If you can tell a difference (beyond what you have to do to justify in your own mind the cost and hassle of screwing around with tires), bless you and your world-class super-sensitive butt-dyno.

Having spent a fair bit of time in Corvette forums, I note that the RFT issue is seldom discussed and the antipathy to RFTs seen in the BMW blogosphere is absent in the Corvette world. All suggesting that the RFT issue is a social meme of scant relation to anything significant.

[Rafale]

Don't know if I agree if ducky. I am changing mine because the road noise and especially the impact noise is unbearable. Performance wise they are not bad at all. The roads around where I live are just really rough.
From a cost stand point, the non RFTs will come actually a lot cheaper if you get a flat.
If I get a flat I will always be able to call any of the roadside assistance available to me through AAA, my insurance or even BMW to get my tires changed within an hour and not having RFTs will make the change actually much faster because RFTs are not readilly available everywhere.
In my many years of driving without RFTs I have never had a flat so bad that I needed roadside assistance. I usually had slow leaks which enabled me to drive to the closest service center to get the tire changed. So to me the RFTs are a pointless and costly feature. I am sure they work for the minute percentage of probability I would need them for but the noise, price, weight and whatever performance loss offered is just not worthy for me.

[Silver-Bolt]

Originally Posted by Rafale

Don't know if I agree if ducky. I am changing mine because the road noise and especially the impact noise is unbearable. Performance wise they are not bad at all. The roads around where I live are just really rough.
From a cost stand point, the non RFTs will come actually a lot cheaper if you get a flat.
If I get a flat I will always be able to call any of the roadside assistance available to me through AAA, my insurance or even BMW to get my tires changed within an hour and not having RFTs will make the change actually much faster because RFTs are not readilly available everywhere.
In my many years of driving without RFTs I have never had a flat so bad that I needed roadside assistance. I usually had slow leaks which enabled me to drive to the closest service center to get the tire changed. So to me the RFTs are a pointless and costly feature. I am sure they work for the minute percentage of probability I would need them for but the noise, price, weight and whatever performance loss offered is just not worthy for me.

+1
RFT technology has improved over the years but still not up to non-RFT standards. The weight of an RFT tire is substantially more than the non's. That alone will help with suspension stability, acceleration, braking, and mpg. Traction is better with the non's. A stiff sidewall is good, a rigid one is not.

[teagueAMX]

I'm sure Rubber Ducky is talking about the latest generation RFT, but even so there is a difference, albeit slight, to someone who can tell the difference.

I'll echo much of what Rafale and Silver-Bolt are saying for emphasis, but said slightly different. One of the criticisms you'll hear of the Z4 is its steering has a heavy feel. A number of forum members have reported that when changing to non-RFT's much of that heavy feel is gone. There's a couple of reasons for that: 1) The sidewalls and tread wall areas have to be thicker, and less flexible than a normal tire to enable driving on the tire when it has no air, 2) the tire is heavier as a result of No. 1, above. Both of those things contribute to less drive "feel" and what's called unsprung weight.

Do a search for discussions on tire sizes here and you'll find one of the issues that comes up is unsprung weight. You want to decrease your unsprung weight whenever possible to improve handling.

Now are we saying that RTF are the kiss of death, NO. As Rafale mentioned, I haven't had an actual blowout flat for more than 25+ years. Mine have been slow leakers and I could get to a station for repairs/replacement. But for many people who travel rough roads, they are a lifesaver and as Ducky indicates the differences are slight enough that people feel that it's an OK trade off and live with them just fine. Only you can decide which category you fit into. You'll note that BMW does not fit their ///M cars with RFTs, but I believe an emergency kit was either standard equipment or optionally available for those who felt they needed it.

[Rafale]

Oh and coming back to the issue of cost, the stock tires are awfully expensive and have ridiculously low treadwear. I hear the Michelin PS2 RFTs are a lot better at about everything but still nothing like a good performance non RFT tire.
For what it's worth, this is not just a BMW issue. I read a lot of tire reviews on tirerack from people with Corvettes who very gladly got rid of their stock RFTs as well. To each its own. If you drive on roads where you get a lot of blow outs then maybe but other than that...

[tranquility]

Is Rubber Ducky the president or major shareholder of a RFT co or something? LOL.

Can someone pls explain why I'm getting less tire traction when getting on the gas...is this just the nature of the car (high powered) or the tires, or something else? I just naturally assumed that it was due to the RFTs and its supposedly poorer grip vs non-RFTs.

[Rafale]

Ha, I guess I have not stepped on the gas pedal hard from a stop yet. You could definitely improve by getting tires with more traction. Not so sure that the RFT in itself is the issue. Just that the tires do not have enough grip for the torque you are putting on them.

[Jay Zone]

Safety is everything. Get a blowout at 80+ and your gonna have a really bad day. If you survive it you'll come back to RFT.

JZ

[tranquility]

What are all these flats I'm reading about (scare tactics?)....mind you when I was in HK, I got 1/2 dozen flats due to extremely crappy roads and nails falling of trunks, all that junk, etc. However, in Toronto, I never got one, period.

[Rafale]

Same thing can be said if you hit a tree or a deer at 80mph will have and probably a higher probability than a blow out. Again, I am sure there are situations when the RFTs come to use. Safety is everything so wear thermal mitts when you go pick up your coffee or drive at 20mph on an empty 4 lane highway. Come on... There is risk to every thing we do. There is always some probability for any accidents to happen. The problem is how much do want to sacrifice to lower the risk. If you think the compromise works for you, so be it and enjoy your car. For me it's not. Getting a straight blow out is less likely for me than being struck by thunder.

Besides I am not sure any of these safety warnings and features make the roads safer. I think it just makes people more careless on the road and alleviates people from their responsibility.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Rafale

Same thing can be said if you hit a tree or a deer at 80mph will have and probably a higher probability than a blow out. Again, I am sure there are situations when the RFTs come to use. Safety is everything so wear thermal mitts when you go pick up your coffee or drive at 20mph on an empty 4 lane highway. Come on... There is risk to every thing we do. There is always some probability for any accidents to happen. The problem is how much do want to sacrifice to lower the risk. If you think the compromise works for you, so be it and enjoy your car. For me it's not. Getting a straight blow out is less likely for me than being struck by thunder.

Besides I am not sure any of these safety warnings and features make the roads safer. I think it just makes people more careless on the road and alleviates people from their responsibility.

+1 Tell 'em Hawk!!

[teagueAMX]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Is Rubber Ducky the president or major shareholder of a RFT co or something? LOL.

Can someone pls explain why I'm getting less tire traction when getting on the gas...is this just the nature of the car (high powered) or the tires, or something else? I just naturally assumed that it was due to the RFTs and its supposedly poorer grip vs non-RFTs.

I know your joking but Ducky is concerned like a lot of people about what happens if you have a flat and no spare tire.

As far as the traction issue is concerned, it gets back to the point made above and that is the manufacture has to assume worst case scenario - your driving along at 70+ mph and have a major blowout, not just a flat where the air leaks out. So the tire has to be able to sustain itself with no air at that speed. That's possible with stiff sidewalls and treadwalls, plus the tire tread compound itself is not very soft.

I'm painting a rough picture for the RFT and they have improved a lot. Regardless, they are not as compliant as a normal tire. As mentioned, tirerack.com has excellent data on the various tires you can buy for your Z including survey results from thousands (in some cases millions) of users. That data is invaluable. The Michelins have been No. 1 and 2 spots for a long time, and only recently has another brand taken the No. 1 spot. There will less survey data for that tire so I would give it time to see if it retains that spot.

[Memphis1]

Originally Posted by tranquility

(I did a search but nothing relevant came up, in case Memphis pops in here lol.)

Are the stocks that bad? I'm still in my break-in period and not really pushing the car, but I find when I press the gas a bit harder, the rear tires just slip a bit and traction control has to come on? I don't understand how it can lose grip so easily on dry pavement. What gives?

On a related matter, what tires would you recommend when I decide to get rid of the stock ones? I don't really feel too confident pushing the car due to the tires (and also the steering could use some tightening up...not sure if anything can be done about that?).

the break in for tires is 200 to 300 miles, they will not have full traction until then, also they're summer tires, so even some rain will cause you to loose traction.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Memphis1

the break in for tires is 200 to 300 miles, they will not have full traction until then, also they're summer tires, so even some rain will cause you to loose traction.

I'm already past 1,000kms and pressing the gas on perfectly dry pavement, so not sure what's up.

[Silver-Bolt]

Originally Posted by Jay Zone

Safety is everything. Get a blowout at 80+ and your gonna have a really bad day. If you survive it you'll come back to RFT.

JZ

THat was muc more probable in the days of 75 & 80 series tires that had huge sidewalls. A blow out would drop the vehicle 4" and point it in the direction of the bad tire. Today you are talking about 1-2" of sidewall and much stiffer too. Much less dramatic when a tire lets go. Also people should not have a false sense of security with RFT tires. If you have a highspeed deflation you will have your hands full.

[Jay Zone]

Originally Posted by Rafale;

Same thing can be said if you hit a tree or a deer at 80mph will have and probably a higher probability than a blow out. Again, I am sure there are situations when the RFTs come to use. Safety is everything so wear thermal mitts when you go pick up your coffee or drive at 20mph on an empty 4 lane highway. Come on... There is risk to every thing we do. There is always some probability for any accidents to happen. The problem is how much do want to sacrifice to lower the risk. If you think the compromise works for you, so be it and enjoy your car. For me it's not. Getting a straight blow out is less likely for me than being struck by thunder.

Besides I am not sure any of these safety warnings and features make the roads safer. I think it just makes people more careless on the road and alleviates people from their responsibility.

The point is "how much do you value safety" we"ve got airbags and crushzones for collisions with trees and deer. Since I"m not on the track and i"ve seen the effects of a high speed blowout I value safety over a minor inconvenience.

Btw if you remove the five airbags in your Z you can shed weight. Probably not an option we want to consider.

JZ

[cdeslandes]

A friend of mine blew a run-flat tire at 80 mph on his 328i, and the tire flew off the rim. I don't think RTF are such a big safety advantage. One can always carry a puncture repair can...

[msimon18]

This is my 4th car with them (3rd BMW) and so far I like them.. Ride is good and no other issues in 100K miles....