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      12-15-2010, 12:37 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I bet it would -- the folding mechanism, actuators, etc... has got to weigh a fair amount, never mind the stiffeners needed for a multi-piece roof. Going to a fixed, single piece roof would probably save a good chunk of weight.
The weight savings would be huge w/o a doubt. However, is there a precedent for any carmaker going to such lengths?
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      12-15-2010, 07:14 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
Yes
Even though BMW did a good job of making a lightweight convertible hardtop, making a fixed hardtop would shave a few pounds.
If that is true then I could see a Z4M in the future. Fixed Roof to shave a few pounds. Shave a few more pounds by "adding lightness" in a few other areas and inserting the same engine as the 1M. This then presents an "entry level" M since the M3 rides into the sunset in late 2011 or early 2012 and the 1M is due to ride into the sunset in 2012 although I think BMW may extend that slightly.

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Originally Posted by Land_Shark View Post
Would there be a Z4 M??? Emm... unless that car can handle a V8 4.0L, we are done for now with N54 and the tuning up (What they've done to M1 is disappointing, IMHO)
While I think the V8 in the Z4 would be great. I don't think BMW would allow that. If a V8 was added to the Z4 it would hurt the 1M sales (depending on the price point for the Z4M) as well as take away from any remaining M3 sales as the M3 sunsets. By adding the engine from the 1M this would allow BMW to spread the cost of developing that M engine into 2 or 3 different M models.

- J
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      12-15-2010, 07:37 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake C View Post
While I think the V8 in the Z4 would be great. I don't think BMW would allow that. If a V8 was added to the Z4 it would hurt the 1M sales
- J
The E9x M3 V8 was already fitted by the M department on the Z4 GT3 so they basically have the "knowhow". http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/04/b...-you-can-race/
I dont see how a Z4M would hurt the 1M sales tho... The 1 series M is the lower entry M car and has a totally different target audience. The future M6 sales? Maybe. The trend in BMW now though is Twin Turbo (N54 N63) and thats also the route (according to rumours) their going with the F series M3. Anyway, any near future chance of an M version with the Z is gonna be with the facelift in a year or so or as they stated or they might not go with an M version at all for this generation.
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      12-15-2010, 10:28 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teagueAMX View Post
Yes

Even though BMW did a good job of making a lightweight convertible hardtop, making a fixed hardtop would shave a few pounds.
teagueAMX

I posted some time ago the idea about the hardtop. I was hoping some Designer type from BMW would read it and pick up on the idea (then they properly are thinking about it). Anyway I think I said in that post it would be nice if they do make a MZ4 and make it with a soft top and the hardtop as an extra option. With the hardtop they could design a storage device that mounts to the garage ceiling to store the hardtop when not in use (similar to a bike storage for the ceiling). As you said it would save a few pounds and make a Z4M so much more attractive. It could be very slick to store the hardtop out of the way tight under the ceiling by string and pulley mechanism. I have those gadgets for one of my bikes and my golf bag and they do work like a charm.

I would gladly remove my bike lift mechanism and replace the lift with a MZ4 hardtop lift mechanism .... so BMW Designers if one of you reads this get busy with this idea (make it a sales incentive if we get the hardtop roof option trow the lift mechanism in free ). Ah lets wait and see what the future brings
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      12-15-2010, 10:32 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
The weight savings would be huge w/o a doubt. However, is there a precedent for any carmaker going to such lengths?
The only case I can think of is the Honda S2000 -- when they released the CR (club racer) model in 2008, they removed the soft top and all the mechanism/actuation, and replaced it with the 44-lb aluminum hard top. That is not a true analogy to the E89 though, and it's hard to figure out the weight savings just due to the top swap for a couple reasons: 1) they added additional bracing to the car (to improve handling, not related to the top), and 2) you can drive the car without the hardtop (totally open car) where the biggest weight savings (90 lbs) is realized.

So that's not a great apples to apples comparison with a hypothetical Z4 case. There may be other analogies that are better. The weight savings due to top/actuation/mechanism removal in the Z4 will be a lot more significant than the S2000 case.
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      12-15-2010, 12:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constant.S View Post
The E9x M3 V8 was already fitted by the M department on the Z4 GT3 so they basically have the "knowhow". http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/04/b...-you-can-race/
I dont see how a Z4M would hurt the 1M sales tho... The 1 series M is the lower entry M car and has a totally different target audience. The future M6 sales? Maybe.
Familiar with the Z4GT3 but that is a whole different price point. Also you are correct Z4M and 1M could co-exist. 1M does have back seats.

- J
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      12-15-2010, 01:45 PM   #51
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Let's not forget weight balance in our effort to make the car lighter. If you remove 100 lbs from the rear something up front needs to change in order to balance the car.
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      12-15-2010, 02:51 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt View Post
Let's not forget weight balance in our effort to make the car lighter. If you remove 100 lbs from the rear something up front needs to change in order to balance the car.
I agree with what you say here, as far as balance is concerned (only the BMW Designer knows what additional weight is seen in the back when the roof is in the trunk ~ I guess that it is 50% or more then I am only guessing here) it is by no means perfect on our car no matter what anyone tells us.

We drive with the roof up and the roof down, right. The retractable hardtop that is.

The balance of the car is perhaps better with the roof up (is my estimate).

The balance must be somewhat displaced with the roof tugged away in the trunk.

So it makes much more sense to make a MZ4 (should they ever make one) with a removable hardtop. Speaking from a Designer point of view it would be much easier to design the car(s) weight distribution with the weight of a hardtop in only one location and a lightweight ragtop in the trunk. This way I think balancing weights during the designing front and back is a much easier task.

What do you think?

PS. A very knowledgeable tire shop service manager told me (in the US) premature wear on your tire on the inside is normal with the extra weight of the roof in the trunk. Later my BMW service manager told me add 4 PSI to your rear wheels when you drive long distances with the top in the trunk. both seam to know are they telling us everything? I wonder.
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Last edited by Mr. ///M3 RD; 12-15-2010 at 02:59 PM.. Reason: added PS
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      12-15-2010, 03:47 PM   #53
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Unfortunately, it just doesn't make sense for BMW to go w/ a pure coupe as a future model because it totally defeats the concept of going w/ a hardtop. Like all you guys are saying, besides the difficulty of removing the roof and the mechanism, there are balancing issues. They would literally almost be developing another car. If it was that simple to remove the weight and plunk a regular roof on the car, another manufacturer would have done it a long time ago. All they did w/ the e85 and the Boxster was just plunk a roof on top and make the coupe even heavier than the convertible, which sucks.
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      12-18-2010, 06:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Bolt View Post
Let's not forget weight balance in our effort to make the car lighter. If you remove 100 lbs from the rear something up front needs to change in order to balance the car.
+1

They will have to find a way to add some lightness. It will be interesting to see if the Z4M develops and if so how it is positioned in price as well as performance.

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      12-22-2010, 05:23 PM   #55
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There will be a Z4 M, that is quite sure. But will it be as I want it, very cheaply done, just as the 1SMC, using parts from the BIN?

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      12-29-2010, 06:47 PM   #56
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There will not be a Z4 M, and here's why.

The first generation Z3 M sold very poorly. A total of 2,870 Z3 M Coupes sold in North America.

The following Z4 M sold even worse. A total of 1,780 Z4 M Coupes sold in North America.

Roadster sales basically doubles coupe sales. Reasonably speaking, roughly around 5,500 Z3 Ms and 3,500 Z4 Ms sold in North America. That is a PISS POOR number. By contrast, MORE Z8s sold in the same amount of time in North America than Z4 M Coupes. And the margins on the Z8s were far higher...And the Z8 was still a sales flop.

Anyone here that thinks there will be another Z4 M in the E89 chassis is smoking crack. EVEN if the E89 Z4 M sold as well as the Z4 M roadster and coupe combined in North America BMW will NEVER make back the investment in $$$ needed to pass certain regulations here in the United States.

And to move that 1,780 Z4 M Coupes BMW had to throw $10,000 worth of trunk cash on top of every single Z4 M sold after 2006. Trust me, anyone over at BMW NA and AG that brings up the possibility of another Z4 M will probably be fired on site.
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      12-30-2010, 04:04 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
There will not be a Z4 M, and here's why.
You could be right, especially now the 35is is on the market. An M version would far to be expensive.

I don't think BMW will skip an M E89 because of the low volume of sold M E36 and E86/86. I guess they already knew that these numbers would be low because of the low volume non M versions, especially the E36/8 and E86.

The Z435is is already a fast car and I can imagine that an even more powerful engine could replace the currently used N54 version. When it comes to handling and think the future low weight (M) Z2 will be the one to take that job.

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Anyone here that thinks there will be another Z4 M in the E89 chassis is smoking crack.
I guess BMW is not smoking Crack, so no M E89.
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      12-30-2010, 07:26 PM   #58
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Well over here a Z4 35is sells for around $130k+ . I would pay around $150k to 160k+ for a M version ($$ & weight savings come from removing the expensive hardtop mechanism). That puts it into current M3 coupe territory, which it should be slightly faster against. Whack the V8 in there. Beautiful.
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      12-30-2010, 07:59 PM   #59
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Whatever - for all your dogmatic statements, you don't know anymore than anyone else. The only people that really know the math, the markets, what would sell and what wouldn't are the top dudes at BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
There will not be a Z4 M, and here's why.

The first generation Z3 M sold very poorly. A total of 2,870 Z3 M Coupes sold in North America.

The following Z4 M sold even worse. A total of 1,780 Z4 M Coupes sold in North America.

Roadster sales basically doubles coupe sales. Reasonably speaking, roughly around 5,500 Z3 Ms and 3,500 Z4 Ms sold in North America. That is a PISS POOR number. By contrast, MORE Z8s sold in the same amount of time in North America than Z4 M Coupes. And the margins on the Z8s were far higher...And the Z8 was still a sales flop.

Anyone here that thinks there will be another Z4 M in the E89 chassis is smoking crack. EVEN if the E89 Z4 M sold as well as the Z4 M roadster and coupe combined in North America BMW will NEVER make back the investment in $$$ needed to pass certain regulations here in the United States.

And to move that 1,780 Z4 M Coupes BMW had to throw $10,000 worth of trunk cash on top of every single Z4 M sold after 2006. Trust me, anyone over at BMW NA and AG that brings up the possibility of another Z4 M will probably be fired on site.
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      12-30-2010, 08:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
Well over here a Z4 35is sells for around $130k+ . I would pay around $150k to 160k+ for a M version ($$ & weight savings come from removing the expensive hardtop mechanism). That puts it into current M3 coupe territory, which it should be slightly faster against. Whack the V8 in there. Beautiful.
+1 except the V8.

For street performance, I like the n54 better. The s65 V8 doesn't start to show it true colors until you rev it up past 3k - 4k RPM.
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      12-30-2010, 08:56 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
There will not be a Z4 M, and here's why....

Anyone here that thinks there will be another Z4 M in the E89 chassis is smoking crack.
You mean you will put some crack in your pipe (be sure to e-mail me) when the Z4 M comes out .... I know a guy that knows a dude that can make your wish come true and let you have some crack
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      12-30-2010, 09:07 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
And to move that 1,780 Z4 M Coupes BMW had to throw $10,000 worth of trunk cash on top of every single Z4 M sold after 2006.
The above statement isn't accurate. I bought my Z4MC in August of '07, and the trunk money had JUST been bumped up to $5k, which enabled me to get a deal done. $10k came much later. Nonetheless, doesn't change your basic point. I agree, makes NO sense to build a Z89 M.
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      12-30-2010, 10:25 PM   #63
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I don't know what the big deal is...it doesn't have to "make sense". For example, dealers often sell cars that don't make any profit just to maintain mkt share. If they do come out w/ the M, it'll be more because of the prestige and it being the halo car for the Z.
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