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      08-21-2010, 11:10 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeslandes View Post
I think I've asked before, but...

Anyone here has Dinan stage II or ESS stage II with a manual transmission?
I do, I'm using Dinan Stage II on my 6spd 3.5, have almost 5000km on it.

Yes I drive it like I stole it as well, the power is too addictive. I'm at around 14.8L/100km, so if my calculations are correct - around 17 MPG?
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      08-21-2010, 02:05 PM   #68
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Nice Report all around, well done...

On my reasoned trip I also ....

A) used the space below my seat for a 3 Ring 1" binder with maps.
B) used the glove box for my digital camera and camcorder.
C) used the shelf behind the seats for a Roots Folding chair, my camera try-pot and an umbrella.
D) we also found the trunk space enough for a small suit case, rucksack, my daughters dowel bag and a very small cooler (holding about 8 small water bottles and ice). Good that my daughter only accompanied me for a section of the trip or I would have had to ship a cracked rear wheel by UPS

Oh and I discovered how to change my play list and artists on my radio when using the iPot (also always in place).
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      08-21-2010, 02:09 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeslandes View Post
I think I've asked before, but...

Anyone here has Dinan stage II or ESS stage II with a manual transmission?
sorry, I have the ESS Stage II and rave about it but it is on my wife's DCT car. If I were you I would not hesitate to go with Dinan or ESS.
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      08-21-2010, 04:46 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageBMW View Post
sorry, I have the ESS Stage II and rave about it but it is on my wife's DCT car. If I were you I would not hesitate to go with Dinan or ESS.
I'm seriously consudering it, but was worried about the cluth's ability to handle the added torque.

But it sounds like Lewis@MWDesign isn't having any problem, so I feel better about it.
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      08-21-2010, 06:09 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeslandes View Post
I'm seriously consudering it, but was worried about the cluth's ability to handle the added torque.

But it sounds like Lewis@MWDesign isn't having any problem, so I feel better about it.
Dinan would not have recommended if that were a problem. I have 6 speed manual without any issues. I have stage 2 dinan software (378hp 416lb torque).
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      08-21-2010, 09:58 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flpnout View Post
Dinan would not have recommended if that were a problem. I have 6 speed manual without any issues. I have stage 2 dinan software (378hp 416lb torque).
true, and flpnout is about to install a FMIC to boot
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      08-22-2010, 01:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flpnout View Post
Dinan would not have recommended if that were a problem. I have 6 speed manual without any issues. I have stage 2 dinan software (378hp 416lb torque).
I talked to my local Dinan rep. He hasn't done a Z4 yet, is looking forward to.

His recommendation is to do it once the car reaches 5,000 miles so I have time to get used to is as is. That would be next spring, which makes sense anyway (can't use 378 hp in the snow!)
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      08-22-2010, 01:48 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeslandes View Post
I talked to my local Dinan rep. He hasn't done a Z4 yet, is looking forward to.

His recommendation is to do it once the car reaches 5,000 miles so I have time to get used to is as is. That would be next spring, which makes sense anyway (can't use 378 hp in the snow!)
Would gently suggest there's no discernible reason for delaying installation of the Dinan tune. If you're gonna do it, do it.
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      08-22-2010, 02:25 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeslandes View Post
. . .can't use 378 hp in the snow!. . .
Sure you could if you're driving +120 mph in the snow! Show some guts, soldier!

Just for conversation sake, the number you really concern yourself with on the street is an even bigger number and that is 421 lb-ft of Dinan tuned torque. That's tractor pulling power that comes on at about 1300 RPM, and feels like cutting butter with a hot knife all the way to 100 mph!

Horsepower will help you spin those wheels very fast, but for normal Joe's like us, it helps you attain a high speed. You only need 15 to 20 horsepower to drive around town. But over 120 mph, air pressure pushing down on your car, plus air friction, requires a geometric increase in horsepower to achieve 150 mph.

I agree with Ducky - you need it!
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      08-22-2010, 02:43 PM   #76
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You guys sound like a couple of pushers...
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      08-22-2010, 02:46 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeslandes View Post
You guys sound like a couple of pushers...
Have now had two N54 cars in a row with Dinan tune. Have yet to see a downside. Makes the Z4 a real sleeper. And to be clear: Watashi has no business interest in Dinan.
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      08-22-2010, 02:50 PM   #78
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HP versus Torque has been a hotly debated topic on most boards I've ever been on. Bottom line is you need both but more important is the whole torque and HP curve.

One way to look at it is torque is what gives you acceleration but HP is the enabler of that torque. In any given gear, the acceleration rate (G's) matches the torque curve, of course except for traction limitations at lower geers/speeds and aerodynamic drag issues at higher speeds. To see this (in any car) in 2nd gear at 1500 RPMs, accelerate all the way to redline. In the Z4 35i, you'll get a constant equal push all the way to 5500 RPMs and it trails off after that.

However, a car with more high RPM HP will out accelerate a car with lesser HP, as long as gearing allows it to stay at those high RPMs. But note, at those RPMs, the torque is higher as well than the torque of the lesser HP car.
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      08-22-2010, 03:49 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky View Post
Would gently suggest there's no discernible reason for delaying installation of the Dinan tune. If you're gonna do it, do it.
I waited for mine until the car was broken in, the fact that Dinan didn't have the remap program ready had nothing to do with it. (OK , that was Bs, I would have done it at 5k but had to wait for Dinan.) Mine was the first Z4 in Calgary to get it at stage II. & IT"S WORTH EVERY PENNY !!!

Also....re snow....I have 300 hp in my truck and it works fine in the snow, the Zed aint worth S*it in snow....it's all about what the vehicle is designed for.
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      08-22-2010, 05:49 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard in NC View Post
HP versus Torque has been a hotly debated topic on most boards I've ever been on. Bottom line is you need both but more important is the whole torque and HP curve.

One way to look at it is torque is what gives you acceleration but HP is the enabler of that torque. In any given gear, the acceleration rate (G's) matches the torque curve, of course except for traction limitations at lower geers/speeds and aerodynamic drag issues at higher speeds. To see this (in any car) in 2nd gear at 1500 RPMs, accelerate all the way to redline. In the Z4 35i, you'll get a constant equal push all the way to 5500 RPMs and it trails off after that.

However, a car with more high RPM HP will out accelerate a car with lesser HP, as long as gearing allows it to stay at those high RPMs. But note, at those RPMs, the torque is higher as well than the torque of the lesser HP car.
It's all good info, Richard, but please know where I'm coming from on it and why I stress torque instead of horsepower.

I sense what most ppl want to know is what affects their z4 as a daily driver. There are plenty of tek talk over on the M3 and 3Series forums if people want it, but you'll notice we typically don't go down that road.

The analogy that works for me in the torque vs horsepower debate is the difference between the n54 and the M3 V8 s65. IMO, the n54 sort of represents the "everyman's" performance engine. It's got gobs of smooth buttery torque, but less horsepower than the "racer's" alternative, the M3's s65. The M3's engine is fantastic IMO, it's got more liters of displacement, more horsepower, but less torque. But given the choice, I would take the n54 over the s65 anyday for a couple of reasons, the primary of which is its torque.

From a practical point of view, when you read the M3 forum there's plenty of e90/e92/e93 M3 1st time owners second guessing their purchase because of one simple fact: They were under the misimpression that buying a car with 400+ horsepower would be a fun daily driver/street racer. The fact is, unless you're prepared to rev that engine hard and keep it in the upper RPM/horsepower band, the 3800 lb M3 is sluggish. But that's not required with an n54 - it pours out plenty of torque right off idle.

Here's another thing: a couple of my 70's era muscle cars have engine displacements approaching 7 liters. Give a European 7 liters to play with and they'd go crazy , but my old v8 just lumbers along, with not much horsepower but with lots torque! They're a blast to drive - in a straight line.

Thanks Richard, cheers.
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      08-22-2010, 06:41 PM   #81
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Torque Vs Horsepower

A Physics lesson for the debate:

If you want to accelerate, you need a force.
Force = mass x acceleration.

Torque is a measure of force, ie the force that can turn the motor or wheels.
(There is a different measure of the torque at the wheels than at the flywheel, due to the gearing of the gearbox and differential)

There is a reason that Torque doesn't vary anywhere as much across the rev range, and that is because it is a measure of the true engine ability to turn energy (petrol/fuel/gas) into a force.
For heavier cars you need more force, ie more torque.
Thats why big torque motors like modern direct injection diesels make great cars for towing. An M3 would be useless for towing a boat, you would have to rev the sh*t out of it to keep it moving. An M3 has less torque in comaprison and it is generate much higher in the rev range. It is a motor that relies on operating in a high rpm band)

Horsepower is almost always quoted as a peak figure. This is meaningless unless you drive constantly at that particular rpm.
Horsepower comes from the energy created each cycle (a single revolution of the engine has 3 cycles in a 6 cylinder engine).
Cars that can rev to higher rpms usually means the cars have higher power output, as you are converting more energy in a higher number of cycles in the same amount of time. (ie revs per minute)
Therefore almost all cars have a fairly linear power curve from about 1000 rpm to the peak.
Its more useful to compare the HP per 1000rpm, as this gives you a measure of the engines ability to rev quickly.
Car engines can fall off in efficiency at too high an rpm, where you really dont want to drive anyway.
Depending on efficency of the engine, higher power outputs generally means higher fuel consumption. Fuel is the sole source of the energy that creates the horsepower.

TO sum up, when you drive at low rpm and are accelerating, the Torque is the king. You may be accelerating wildly for the first second in a gear, from say 2000rpm up to 5000rpm. This is all torque, as you are only getting say 100-180 kw over this rev range (in a 35i).
When the Torque peak starts to fall off, you get a boost from the higher power levels in the driving acceleration, as you are burning an incredible amount of fuel from 5000rpm to 6500rpm which is converted to kinetic energy.

Once you reach the power peak, you may as well change down a gear, you are flogging a dead horse in terms of better acceleration performance.

Many race drivers will ignore the power peak in a good turbo car, where the torque figures are huge in comparison to the normally asperated cars.
They will drive in the 2000-5000rpm band and use the torque for everything.
They miss out on the high screaming noise of the top rpm in the engine range, but they use less fuel for the endurance aspect of a race and miss out very little on accelerative force and acceleration times.
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      08-22-2010, 07:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Stig 2 View Post
Therefore almost all cars have a fairly linear power curve from about 1000 rpm to the peak.

When the Torque peak starts to fall off, you get a boost from the higher power levels in the driving acceleration, as you are burning an incredible amount of fuel from 5000rpm to 6500rpm which is converted to kinetic energy.

Many race drivers will ignore the power peak in a good turbo car, where the torque figures are huge in comparison to the normally asperated cars.
They will drive in the 2000-5000rpm band and use the torque for everything.
They miss out on the high screaming noise of the top rpm in the engine range, but they use less fuel for the endurance aspect of a race and miss out very little on accelerative force and acceleration times.
It is correct that the torque curve is more important for daily driving and HP is important for racing because they do stay in the high HP ranges all the time.

I agree with everything stated except the quoted statements. Because the HP is a function of torque x RPM, the slope of the HP curve matches the torque curve. It is only linear if the torque curve is not a curve (ie flat).

I also disagree with getting an acceleration boost at high RPM. The acceleration rate matches the torque curve only. In the M5 V10 you would feel a high RPM boost but only because the torque curve rises in the 5000-6000 RPM range. It would not be the case in the 35i with its flat torque curve.

Lastly, I'd bet the turbo cars have a lower torque peak, and likely RPM peak than the NA cars.
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      08-22-2010, 10:35 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard in NC View Post
Lastly, I'd bet the turbo cars have a lower torque peak, and likely RPM peak than the NA cars.
Richard, I generally agree with your statement based on building NA engines during my wasted youthful developmental years. And thanks Dr. Stig for the physics class (and yes, torque is King!).

Typically there's a trade off between engines designed for a high RPM power curve and the lower RPM torque. There are many factors in the engine design but they come down to: 1) bore and stroke - longer piston stroke tends to favor torque and a short piston stroke favors higher RPM horsepower generation, and, 2) the second factor is intake air/fuel volumetric efficiency.

The first is how fast the piston travels in the bore. A longer piston stoke is slower but generates more torque throughout the entire combustion cycle, i.e., n54 engine. Typically "torquey" engines have lower red line RPM limitations. The shorter piston stroke can turn the crankshaft faster and thus makes more HP at higher RPM but sacrifices low end torque, i.e., M3 s65 engine. Typically speaking, M3 Formula 1 style engines have a much higher RPM limitation.

Intake volumetric efficiency is the amount of air/fuel you can stuff into the combustion chamber at a given RPM. It is also tuned for a specific RPM range. This is still true now days, even though they play tricks with the intake manifold tracks. Put it simply, you like to feel a nice engine response when you step on the gas. But are you stepping on the gas off idle at a stop light, or in 2nd gear pulling out of a curve with the engine racing at 7000 RPM. The intake track has to be designed differently depending on where you want the power band.

To sum it up, yes I understand the power equations. And yes, I'm simplifying the discussion by saying that torque is the number to look at, but I realize the design tradeoffs the BMW engineers made in designing the N54. Looking at the n54 and its performance characteristics, its design purpose is to produce huge amounts of easily accessible torque in the lower RPM band, which is exactly where daily drivers live.
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      08-23-2010, 08:01 AM   #84
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I have really enjoyed this instruction by knowledgeable forum members. However, CDESLANDES, buy the upgrade NOW!!!!!, you will not regret it for even a second.
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