ESS Tune - 35i-sHADOW?

[williakz]

Why isn't there a tuning map to bring the stock 35i (300hp) up to stock 35is (330hp) performance? Surely the stock factory ECU programs are well known to the tuning elves. Can't the program from the 35is simply be applied to the 35i? Is it a copyright or patent issue? Or is it a matter that such an option might motivate the manufacturer to close the software tuning window for good?

I would think a "sHADOW" option or whatever nifty marketing name you give might be very attractive to Z4 buyers who are leery of going into more exotic Stage 1/Stage 2 territory. There's also the matter of a simple, compelling monetary comparison between the two models given the same option mix.

[Nkc]

IMO, stage 1 of the ESS is basically the same as 35is. Once you try stage 2, I don't see how anyone would set it back to stage 1.

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by Nkc

IMO, stage 1 of the ESS is basically the same as 35is. Once you try stage 2, I don't see how anyone would set it back to stage 1.

Isn't the great thing about the IS overboost function that it only works at lower RPMs and hence is more gentle to the turbos than stage 2. Ie it increases boost temporarily to ESS stage 2 levels at lower RPMs but keeps HP at higher RPMs at something similar to ESS stage 1? This combined with the fact that the overboost is only available for a short period means that you are getting a very reliable tune similar to ESS stage 1, but with temporary stage 2 performance available where and when safe.

It would be nice to have this as a "35isHADOW" tune, but I would still want the added responsiveness of the ESS tunes mixed in. Also it would be nice if the availability of the overboost programme would actually depend on factors such as oil and water temperature instead of simply a fixed set of seconds.

[VailM3]

Having a 35iS, I see no reason to get an ESS tune. The power it puts out for the daily drive is far more than needed, especially in these small streets of Switzerland. StageII would mean i would be breaking the law that much faster, and I break it fast as it is with the stock 35iS

[williakz]

Originally Posted by Nkc

IMO, stage 1 of the ESS is basically the same as 35is. Once you try stage 2, I don't see how anyone would set it back to stage 1.

I think there's good evidence that Stage 1 is quite a bump in performance over the 35is stock program. Also, the characteristic timed boost of the 35is is not found in the Stage 1 program.

My wife, for example, would never even TRY Stage 2, let alone go back to Stage 1. That said, she WOULD approve a modest investment (say $499) to bring her fully loaded 35i up from stock to the exact same performance level as her friend's 35is. And, the economics are pretty compelling; try configuring a 2014 35i and a 35is to the same option mix using the BMWUSA Build Your Own configurator and note the list price difference (approx. $5,300). See the opportunity for marketing a $499 package that equalizes the two?

Finally, those customers (probably still the majority) who wanted the full package could either pay to upgrade from the Stock and "sHADOW" 2 map package to add Stage 1 and Stage 2 (there's room for 10 maps, I think) or could simply buy the pricier full 4 map package up front (Stock, sHADOW, Stage 1, Stage 2). Think of it as the "couples" tuner package, 1 for her, and 2 for him. Sounds about right to me...

[jannisa]

Originally Posted by williakz

I think there's good evidence that Stage 1 is quite a bump in performance over the 35is stock program. Also, the characteristic timed boost of the 35is is not found in the Stage 1 program.

My wife, for example, would never even TRY Stage 2, let alone go back to Stage 1. That said, she WOULD approve a modest investment (say $499) to bring her fully loaded 35i up from stock to the exact same performance level as her friend's 35is. And, the economics are pretty compelling; try configuring a 2014 35i and a 35is to the same option mix using the BMWUSA Build Your Own configurator and note the list price difference (approx. $5,300). See the opportunity for marketing a $499 package that equalizes the two?

Finally, those customers (probably still the majority) who wanted the full package could either pay to upgrade from the Stock and "sHADOW" 2 map package to add Stage 1 and Stage 2 (there's room for 10 maps, I think) or could simply buy the pricier full 4 map package up front (Stock, sHADOW, Stage 1, Stage 2). Think of it as the "couples" tuner package, 1 for her, and 2 for him. Sounds about right to me...

If you approach it solely in $ terms a flash at home solution like ess will disappoint you.
You are not paying for 1,2 or 10 maps, you are paying for a flashloading device, r&d and distribution. Dialing in different tuning parameters is a matter of minutes for a programmer with resources for r&d who has his job done.

The 5300$ price tag you mention doesn't come down to 35hp and a rather useless* overboost function, it includes preselected options such as suspension, gearbox, aerodynamics etc.

*I wouldn't get upset with the numbers, 340 is very close to 360 and besides the iS mapping targets ess stage2 boost levels for that few seconds and I wouldn't call that smooth compared to stg1 for instance or as is. It also looses in a sense of consistency in my eyes and I prefer to control boost on my own with my right foot to be honest.

My point is that you have a car with a potential to increase its output by a good 30%+ with a software only and unfortunately there is no trial option to test various boost setups or an entry level tune package.
Have you driven that iS yourself or was it just an example? How does it feel?

[williakz]

Originally Posted by jannisa

If you approach it solely in $ terms a flash at home solution like ess will disappoint you. You are not paying for 1,2 or 10 maps, you are paying for a flashloading device, r&d and distribution. Dialing in different tuning parameters is a matter of minutes for a programmer with resources for r&d who has his job done.

Not sure I understand your point here. The cost components of the ESS system are irrelevant to me. I am an end user and care nothing for R&D and distribution processes. I only care about the cost/benefit to me.

The 5300$ price tag you mention doesn't come down to 35hp and a rather useless* overboost function, it includes preselected options such as suspension, gearbox, aerodynamics etc.

This is simply incorrect. The 35i with M Sport package is the same car as the 35is with the exception of side nameplates and N54 ECU programs. Same car, $5,300 price difference. This is why I believe a modestly priced "sHADOW" tuning map could be readily marketed to those wanting the 35is but unwilling or incapable of paying the stiff price differential from the 35i (like ME!). BTW, you don't have to believe me about the price differential; go on BMW USA (or GREECE?) and configure two cars - one 35i and one 35is - with same options. Then compare prices and report back here.

My point is that you have a car with a potential to increase its output by a good 30%+ with a software only and unfortunately there is no trial option to test various boost setups or an entry level tune package.
Have you driven that iS yourself or was it just an example? How does it feel?

I don't deny the potential for significant performance increases through ECU program tuning, how could I and why would I? ESS Stage 1 and Stage 2 engine output is a matter of fact, not conjecture. I am also not complaining about the lack of a trial option for the boosts. What I AM saying is that there exists, I BELIEVE, a sizable market for ESS to exploit with a gentle, reasonably price tuning product ("sHADOW") that would simply turn a 35i into a performance clone of its 35is stablemate for a fraction of their $5,300 list price differential. Furthermore, many of us (35i owners) are justifiably leery of committing almost $1,000 to SCARY tuning maps that turn our wonderful 35i roadsters into monstrous dragsters we have little confidence we can safely control. The "sHADOW" tune allows us to move up into a slightly more powerful machine (35is) whose driving behavior is already well-known by many enthusiasts. With this "baby boost" under our belts, many of us could and would then consider moving to the more demanding (and rewarding) boosts of ESS Stage 1 and Stage 2 ECU programs. And, yes, I have driven both 35i and 35is Z4 models.

[jannisa]

I just checked on NA and you are right on the price difference, boy these packages look great and the dct addition is a bargain itself.

I think we have a misunderstanding, I pointed that for the reasons I mentioned a flashing or a distant flashing option from any reputable shop wouldn't cost that 500$ you suggested and that the 340hp of the iS aren't ''that'' much sharper than a tuned at 360hp and at some point smoother.

Do you mind commenting how different the 35i and iS felt?

[williakz]

Originally Posted by jannisa

I just checked on NA and you are right on the price difference, boy these packages look great and the dct addition is a bargain itself.

Yup! For hard-core doubters (not you!), go to one of the BMW parts sites and check out the suspension and engine components. SAME!

I think we have a misunderstanding, I pointed that for the reasons I mentioned a flashing or a distant flashing option from any reputable shop wouldn't cost that 500$ you suggested and that the 340hp of the iS aren't ''that'' much sharper than a tuned at 360hp and at some point smoother.

I'm not getting your cost point. Are you suggesting that Microsoft should only charge 25 cents for MS Word because that's the cost of the CD, box, and shrink wrap? Or are you justifying Microsoft's $250 price (or whatever) because of its past R&D, current support, and future development costs? Please try to make your point a different way; I'd like to understand what you're trying to say.

You continue to misunderstand my proposal. It centers on the proposition that the "sHADOW" tune match EXACTLY the stock 35is ECU program WHATEVER its imperfections. That way, ESS provides an easily understood, market accepted (people BUY 35is cars!) step up for Z4 enthusiasts while saving them approx. $5,000! That will buy a LOT of customer loyalty which will serve ESS well in enticing those with the ability and desire to take the next step to upgrade the "sHADOW" to full Stage 1/Stage 2 tuning programs. Certainly there are some, like yourself, that see no reason not to pursue the maximum performance possible at the earliest opportunity. Great! I'm simply saying there are many more people who need to take smaller steps, take them more slowly, and possibly get off the tuning track well before you would.

Do you mind commenting how different the 35i and iS felt?

As you may have surmised from my previous posts, I am a driver of singularly undistinguished ability. I do not presently (and probably never will) possess the skills to fully exploit or appreciate even cars of modest ability, let alone the 35i/35is Z4s in stock trim. The ESS Stage 1/Stage 2 tuning mods are really out of the question for me from a control standpoint. That said, I can tell you that prior to my driving it, my salesman pulled our 2012 35is out of the dealership onto a 5 lane (center turn lane) highway in a major U.S. city and told me to hang on tight. With no traffic ahead of him (and no police behind him) he punched it and the car went from 0 to 85mph (45mph PSL) in less time than it took me to scream or to sh*t myself! It then went from 85 to 35 in a blink so he could fly into a very hard right turn, floor it back to 60mph, and immediately slam on the brakes to a dead stop! "So whaddaya think?" he asked. I was ready to punch him!

I hope this helps you to understand my perspective on performance tuning.

[jannisa]

Originally Posted by williakz

That way, ESS provides an easily understood, market accepted (people BUY 35is cars!) step up for Z4 enthusiasts while saving them approx. $5,000! That will buy a LOT of customer loyalty which will serve ESS well in enticing those with the ability and desire to take the next step to upgrade the "sHADOW" to full Stage 1/Stage 2 tuning programs. Certainly there are some, like yourself, that see no reason not to pursue the maximum performance possible at the earliest opportunity. Great! I'm simply saying there are many more people who need to take smaller steps, take them more slowly, and possibly get off the tuning track well before you would.





I hope this helps you to understand my perspective on performance tuning.

All points taken mate. My approach was simply that your ''sHADOW'' proposition could pricely not be marketed that low compared to the full monty version.

Btw I never implied that I am the knight rider. Stage1 is what I perceive the limit and the balance between the chassis-engine-me and as I mentioned elsewhere stg1 feels to me smoother than stock regarding throttle management.

[Vintage]

excellent discussion and I bought the 35i before the is was available! I like the $499 idea.

as for me, I went a little overboard; added a Stett FMIC, AR catted/ceramic coated DPs, charge pipe, and Eisenmann race exhaust - long story on mods but it started with my wife wanting an aggressive exhaust note and it spun out of control as I am a bit obsessive. I had an ESS stage 2 flashed when the FMIC and Exhaust were added a few years ago but I thought it was crazy power with these mods so stepped down to the stage 1 and it is now just right.

that is a really long way of saying I should have waited for and bought the iS for the money or simply bought a 35i with ESS stage 1. No regrets though, the car is sweet and we added Michelin PSS; it is now perfect with 30k miles and almost 4 years old.

[williakz]

Originally Posted by Vintage

I like the $499 idea.

...I should have waited for and bought the iS for the money or simply bought a 35i with ESS stage 1.

No regrets though, the car is sweet and we added Michelin PSS; it is now perfect with 30k miles and almost 4 years old.

Had the "sHADOW" tune been available 4 years ago for $499, would you have bought it to turn your 35i into a 35is? Then, would you have upgraded to the Stage 1/Stage 2 tuning maps instead of going down the expensive, time-consuming mod route? I'm thinking you (at time of 35i purchase) probably represented the ideal customer profile for the "sHADOW' tuning package under discussion. ESS, are you listening?

P.S. On tires, I intend to replace the RFTs with PSS at the first opportunity. Question is: how do I go about getting those brand new RFTs sold off to pay for the brand new PSS? Any ideas?

[sales@ESSTuning]

There is more to our software than just power. In my opinion our software performs better than stock overall even when you remove the differences in power. Scaling down our tune to make less than the stage 1 would be easy as we simply dial the boost back. The problem is that the remote tuning hardware, the time spent to build the file and all of the work that goes into a product like this is the same as our current stage 1 and stage 2 tunes so there is no cost savings by simply lowering the power output.

I found in my personal Z4 35is the overboost to be annoying as it would come and go often and not be available when I wanted it or was expecting it. Having the additional power always available I found much more enjoyable.

[williakz]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

There is more to our software than just power. In my opinion our software performs better than stock overall even when you remove the differences in power. Scaling down our tune to make less than the stage 1 would be easy as we simply dial the boost back. The problem is that the remote tuning hardware, the time spent to build the file and all of the work that goes into a product like this is the same as our current stage 1 and stage 2 tunes so there is no cost savings by simply lowering the power output.

I found in my personal Z4 35is the overboost to be annoying as it would come and go often and not be available when I wanted it or was expecting it. Having the additional power always available I found much more enjoyable.

Hi Roman,

Thanks for your response. From engineering, accounting, and enthusiast perspectives, I fully understand your points and consider them both reasonable and valid. That said, you have not addressed the MARKETING aspect of the ESS tuning system as it relates to the "baby boost" tune I have proposed. Please do so with your management so they (and you) can consider if and how any upfront pricing disadvantage for "sHADOW" could be offset by later Stage 1/Stage 2 tuning upgrades, wider acceptance of your system across more owner profiles, and customer loyalty for the $5,000 "saved" by your magical transformation of their 35i into a stock 35is . Good luck and thanks again for your consideration.

BTW, I put my money where my mouth is. You can punch me in as the first customer for the "sHADOW" tune program to turn my 2014 35i into a 35i-sHADOW. Visa or Mastercard?

[Vintage]

I love my ESS stage 1 - love it; the car has more power but it is smoother and more sophisticated than stock.

[williakz]

Originally Posted by Vintage

I love my ESS stage 1 - love it; the car has more power but it is smoother and more sophisticated than stock.

NOT THE POINT! I'm sure I too will love the ESS Stage 1 WHEN I'M READY FOR IT! But right now, I'm ONLY ready for ESS to turn my 35i into a 35is while I pocket $5,000. What's wrong with that?

[Constant.S]

The guys over at the 335 forum (N54 Section which is our engine) have a thread started about open source tuning. Once the community reverse engineer and figure out all the tables of our Bosch ECU it would be "easy" for someone technically inclined to mimick the "is" function just using his laptop and the correct obd cable or get maps with specific boost targets for the desired hp from the community. So far they are doing pretty good, check it out.

[williakz]

Wild thread, and even crazier project. I'm subscribed! Thanks a bunch, CS.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by williakz

Furthermore, many of us (35i owners) are justifiably leery of committing almost $1,000 to SCARY tuning maps that turn our wonderful 35i roadsters into monstrous dragsters we have little confidence we can safely control.

~360whp / 400 crank hp in a 3500lb car is scary / monstrous ? seriously?



Great reminder of how different perspectives on our forum can be!

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

~360whp / 400 crank hp in a 3500lb car is scary / monstrous ? seriously?



Great reminder of how different perspectives on our forum can be!

+1

With all due respect, I think we might be exaggerating the effect of a Stage 1 tune just a smidge.

A tune makes the throttle a bit more responsive, makes the car pull harder, and lets it pull longer, but it does not suddenly make an otherwise controllable car uncontrollable. In fact, one could argue that a modest tune makes the car easier to control in two specific ways:

First, the increase throttle responsiveness reduces the dangerous scenario for BMW turbo cars where there is a lag between pedal push and engine response. This can be an issue when trying to pull out into traffic. By making the car more responsive to pedal input, a tune eliminates that potential risk.

Second, whereas the stock tune seems to create a scenario where the power seems to come on all of a sudden at, say, 3,500 RPM, a tune often makes the power increase more linear and predictable.

[Hoa]

Originally Posted by williakz

The 35i with M Sport package is the same car as the 35is with the exception of side nameplates and N54 ECU programs. Same car, $5,300 price difference. This is why I believe a modestly priced "sHADOW" tuning map could be readily marketed to those wanting the 35is but unwilling or incapable of paying the stiff price differential from the 35i (like ME!). BTW, you don't have to believe me about the price differential; go on BMW USA (or GREECE?) and configure two cars - one 35i and one 35is - with same options. Then compare prices and report back here.

the wheels are different, 35is model also come with larger brakes and different exhaust. just because its not listed on the website doesn't mean its not different. im sure bmw have their reasons to make it more expensive. for 2013+ the 35is model will come with almost every single option which translate to about 1800 less than previous years

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by williakz

NOT THE POINT! I'm sure I too will love the ESS Stage 1 WHEN I'M READY FOR IT! But right now, I'm ONLY ready for ESS to turn my 35i into a 35is while I pocket $5,000. What's wrong with that?

Gosh - maybe my comment was lost in translation. Thank you for your pleasant disposition as I was simply supporting your quest for a modified ESS tune. Best of luck mate and happy trails.