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      12-24-2012, 05:46 PM   #45
cool4re
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I had a 2011 35i M-Sport and now have the 2013 35is so I am familiar with both, and I noticed a big difference in power and the sound of the exhaust is better on the 35is. For an every day car, the low end torque makes it a fantastic choice.
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      01-05-2013, 12:48 AM   #46
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Hi all,
I've been reading about this whole 35is vs 35i w/ tune and the I guys always state that with the tune it'll be as fast, (some say faster than) the IS. I was bored and decided to check out the dyno charts of ESS.

Here are some rough call outs- (the graphs is not too detailed.)

35is @ 3000= a bit over 225-230hp, torque 370lb
35i @ 3000=200hp, torque 350lb

35is @ 4000= 315hp, torque 407lb
35i @ 4000=270hp, torque 350lb

35is @ 5000= a bit over 354, torque 370ish lb
35i @ 5000=320ish hp, torque 320ish lb

35is @ 6000= 330ish hp, torque 290ish lb
35i @ 6000=363hp, torque 315ish lb

Anyways you can see that the way the cars make the power is different. The 35is seems to be low to mid powerband where as the 35i is more top end based.

The point I am trying to make is that on paper, with numbers only, it looks like you can make a bootleg 35is with after market tune because peak hp numbers are close. But looking at the ESS graphs you can see that the torque/hp is higher overall, and the 35is has a wider power band.

The 35i powerband reminds me of civic turbos which only make power way up top.

Im not trying to bash anyone here so please don't take it that way. I just wanted to bring more info to the table for those choosing between the 2 cars.

look at the charts and you'll see there's more to the story.
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      01-05-2013, 02:24 AM   #47
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Here's Dinan's figures which include BMW's Factory Matching Warranty (4year/50,000 mi)

35i w/ Dinan Stage 3 Tune
Peak horsepower 398 at 5700 rpm
Peak torque: 429 lb-ft at 4300 rpm

35is w/ Dinan State 2 Tune
Peak horsepower: 378 horsepower at 5700 rpm
Peak torque: 415 lb-ft torque at 4300 rpm

Keep in mind this power is available on tap anytime and not limited to 30 second bursts.

Cheers
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      01-05-2013, 01:25 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jts1981 View Post
Hi all,
I've been reading about this whole 35is vs 35i w/ tune and the I guys always state that with the tune it'll be as fast, (some say faster than) the IS. I was bored and decided to check out the dyno charts of ESS.
But why oh why? Both use the N54 hardware! Please remember that we can never compare charts from different dynos/cars/conditions. We can only compare before and after charts on the same car/dyno/day.

Please also remember that the ESS tune is also available for the 35is. And there is no way they lowered the boost at any RPM. Why would they tune the car to produce less torque and then try to sell that as a performance product?

There are two tunes for the 35i (stage 1 = 350hp and stage 2 = 390hp). For the 35is there is only one ESS tune (stage 1 which gives you +50hp or so. This is the same as stage 2 for 35i). This is because the 35is (without overboost) already produces similar torque as the 35i with ESS stage 1.

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Originally Posted by jts1981 View Post
35is @ 3000= a bit over 225-230hp, torque 370lb
35i @ 3000=200hp, torque 350lb

35is @ 4000= 315hp, torque 407lb
35i @ 4000=270hp, torque 350lb

35is @ 5000= a bit over 354, torque 370ish lb
35i @ 5000=320ish hp, torque 320ish lb

35is @ 6000= 330ish hp, torque 290ish lb
35i @ 6000=363hp, torque 315ish lb
Again, because boost is increased, there is no way that ESS produces less torque at any RPM. I do not believe above numbers are comparable.

Here is the chart comparing 35is vs ESS on the same car/day/dyno (I assume).

http://www.esstuning.com/product_ima...55766_zoom.jpg

I am not sure if the 35is is running overboost in this chart. Maybe it is not. But there is no way that ESS is turning an 35is into a Honda Civic like you stated. This engine comes with two small turbos.They have very little lag, but even ESS cannot change the fact that they run out of air at higher RPMs.
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      01-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #49
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I love this forum and the knowledge I gain by reading it - but, both cars are awesome and on the street the torque is intoxicating. Either car would make me very happy.
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      01-05-2013, 02:22 PM   #50
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For me, as long as it comes with a 6-spd manual is all that mattered most between 35i and 35is.
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      01-05-2013, 03:56 PM   #51
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The numbers I posted where both on ESS tunes.

The 35i obviously was the stage 2 tune.

teagueAMX, the comment about over boost. The 35is makes MORE POWER ALL THE TIME, PLUS over boost when needed. I think some people assume its 300hp, and the extra hp is only for a few seconds. No that is incorrect. It is more hp overall.

The whole point of breaking down each rpm was to show that the 35is power is wider and stronger. Yea sure the 35i has good peak numbers. But from 2000-5000 the 35is is stronger by a good amount, specially torque wise.

Lastly, the stage 3 numbers for 35i looks great. Just curious what has to be modded for that? Any intake, exhaust, etc?

Im glad Dinnan has warranty, but doesn't that tune, plus additional upgrades bring you to the 35is price range?

Btw, i agree with everyone in terms of the manual. I'll miss that but I'm hoping the better power band and torque will even it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjørn View Post
But why oh why? Both use the N54 hardware! Please remember that we can never compare charts from different dynos/cars/conditions. We can only compare before and after charts on the same car/dyno/day.

Please also remember that the ESS tune is also available for the 35is. And there is no way they lowered the boost at any RPM. Why would they tune the car to produce less torque and then try to sell that as a performance product?

There are two tunes for the 35i (stage 1 = 350hp and stage 2 = 390hp). For the 35is there is only one ESS tune (stage 1 which gives you +50hp or so. This is the same as stage 2 for 35i). This is because the 35is (without overboost) already produces similar torque as the 35i with ESS stage 1.



Again, because boost is increased, there is no way that ESS produces less torque at any RPM. I do not believe above numbers are comparable.

Here is the chart comparing 35is vs ESS on the same car/day/dyno (I assume).

http://www.esstuning.com/product_ima...55766_zoom.jpg

I am not sure if the 35is is running overboost in this chart. Maybe it is not. But there is no way that ESS is turning an 35is into a Honda Civic like you stated. This engine comes with two small turbos.They have very little lag, but even ESS cannot change the fact that they run out of air at higher RPMs.
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      01-05-2013, 04:06 PM   #52
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This is the same chart I used.

I think you're confused about my Honda statement.

What I meant was that the power band, the way the engine makes power, is very "peaky" on the 35i. Which means that less then 6000 rpm the engine brings up power slowly and then peaks.

For the 35is the power comes quicker and flatter curve. you will feel more power sooner with the 35is.

Hondas are very peaky. Low rpms they do not produce a lot of power, but they are great up top.

In contrast. American muscle cars have great low end power but suck above 5000 rpm.

I guess what I am saying is that the tune for the 35is has a great low- mid range where as the 35i has a great top end power. Next time you are driving take a look at your rpm and see where they sit around corners, passing, and cruising. You'll notice you wont be at 6000 for very long, most likely cruising 3-4500. At those ranges you'll notice the 35is is stronger.

peak hp helps sales.
torque wins races.
mid range power/ torque + hp is where the fun is. ( you don't have to wind it up)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjørn View Post
But why oh why? Both use the N54 hardware! Please remember that we can never compare charts from different dynos/cars/conditions. We can only compare before and after charts on the same car/dyno/day.

Please also remember that the ESS tune is also available for the 35is. And there is no way they lowered the boost at any RPM. Why would they tune the car to produce less torque and then try to sell that as a performance product?

There are two tunes for the 35i (stage 1 = 350hp and stage 2 = 390hp). For the 35is there is only one ESS tune (stage 1 which gives you +50hp or so. This is the same as stage 2 for 35i). This is because the 35is (without overboost) already produces similar torque as the 35i with ESS stage 1.



Again, because boost is increased, there is no way that ESS produces less torque at any RPM. I do not believe above numbers are comparable.

Here is the chart comparing 35is vs ESS on the same car/day/dyno (I assume).

http://www.esstuning.com/product_ima...55766_zoom.jpg

I am not sure if the 35is is running overboost in this chart. Maybe it is not. But there is no way that ESS is turning an 35is into a Honda Civic like you stated. This engine comes with two small turbos.They have very little lag, but even ESS cannot change the fact that they run out of air at higher RPMs.
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      01-05-2013, 07:30 PM   #53
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Quote:
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teagueAMX, the comment about over boost. The 35is makes MORE POWER ALL THE TIME, PLUS over boost when needed. I think some people assume its 300hp, and the extra hp is only for a few seconds. No that is incorrect. It is more hp overall.
I fully understand your point and allow me to explain my comment regarding Overboost.

I've been posting a number of times over the years regarding the significance of torque number vs horsepower. Below is a post from 2010. IMO, for street purposes, horsepower figures are meaningless. However, most people in the performance automotive universe love to see great horsepower numbers and ignore torque figures. That's what hits a lot of wanna-be M3 fan boys right between the eyes.

They fall in love with the M3, its f1 style engine, great horsepower numbers (relatively poor torque numbers across the entire RPM range) and then they want to drive it daily. They soon realize you have to keep you foot in the go-peddle and maintain high RPMs all the time to truly enjoy the car. I've read a number of posts over the years of M3 newbies expressing disappointment with car. It's a hard lesson to learn.

On the other the N54 produces ample amounts of useable torque right off idle, which technically is above 900-1000 RPM to 1200 RPM. Plus it has excellent acceleration from low RPM's. So as a daily driver, and as a street-able high performance sports car IMO it is superior to the M3 (not talking track here.) So if we're talking street cars vs track cars, I couldn't care less about horsepower figures.

I've also included the M3 v8 power curve chart. It's metric so here are the torque conversion figures. So even though the m3's peak 295 lbsft torque appears to be comparable to n54, it's really not. The TT N54 hits its stride right out of the gate whereas the M3 doesn't reach the its peak until 3500 RPM, and has taken a lot heat over the years for that reason. This is why I focus on torque rather than horsepower.

Torque
191 @ 1100
206 @ 1500
247 @ 2000
263 @ 2500
280 @ 3000
295 @ 3500

BTW, a couple of notes concerning my chart which I produced back in 2010. Dinan did have his Stage III package out yet. I think I need to revisit the 35is HP and torque figures in my chart because they may be a little high. But you get the idea.

Cheers

.
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      01-05-2013, 09:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jts1981 View Post
What I meant was that the power band, the way the engine makes power, is very "peaky" on the 35i. Which means that less then 6000 rpm the engine brings up power slowly and then peaks.

For the 35is the power comes quicker and flatter curve. you will feel more power sooner with the 35is.
I respectfully disagree. There is no way that the N54 with or without ESS produces anything other than a tonne of torque at relatively low RPMs. The differences from engine to engine will be no-where near the difference between American V8 and a Honda Civic. If we were comparing the N54 to the boxter or cayman engine I would agree with you much more.

Although the N54 was updated over the years, any differences will probably be within +/-5% on the same car, with the same fuel and on the same day. But there is no way to find out exactly of course.

Now, I will not be surprised if the 35is produces almost the same torque as ESS during overboost, but that is an entirely different discussion. If it does indeed produce ESS torque, but only at a certain lower rev range (to keep peak hp at 335 for whatever reason), then it would indeed produce a more peaky torque-curve like you said. But anyhow, the actual peak torque figure will not be higher than that of ESS at any RPM no-matter 35i or 35is. Remember the engines are essentially the same from a hardware point of view, and there is no way that ESS would lower the boost at any RPM.

AFAIK ESS stage 2 for 35i and ESS stage 1 for 35is are the same ECU flashes applied to the same hardware. Among other things, they increase the turbo pressure to the maximum that these totally identical fellows can run "safely".
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      01-05-2013, 10:15 PM   #55
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I'm comparing ess tune for 35i vs their tune for 35is. The point is the tunes are different even they have the same hardware. The 35is exhaust probably has a lot to do with that. The point is there is a difference between the I and is that is also reflected in their aftermarket tunes.





QUOTE=Asbjørn;13258791]I respectfully disagree. There is no way that the N54 with or without ESS produces anything other than a tonne of torque at relatively low RPMs. The differences from engine to engine will be no-where near the difference between American V8 and a Honda Civic. If we were comparing the N54 to the boxter or cayman engine I would agree with you much more.

Although the N54 was updated over the years, any differences will probably be within +/-5% on the same car, with the same fuel and on the same day. But there is no way to find out exactly of course.

Now, I will not be surprised if the 35is produces almost the same torque as ESS during overboost, but that is an entirely different discussion. If it does indeed produce ESS torque, but only at a certain lower rev range (to keep peak hp at 335 for whatever reason), then it would indeed produce a more peaky torque-curve like you said. But anyhow, the actual peak torque figure will not be higher than that of ESS at any RPM no-matter 35i or 35is. Remember the engines are essentially the same from a hardware point of view, and there is no way that ESS would lower the boost at any RPM.

AFAIK ESS stage 2 for 35i and ESS stage 1 for 35is are the same ECU flashes applied to the same hardware. Among other things, they increase the turbo pressure to the maximum that these totally identical fellows can run "safely". [/quote]
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      01-05-2013, 10:38 PM   #56
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Blah, blah, blah. It really comes down to the driver's skill!! Just get on a race track and bring it on. Enough with the blah, blah, blah on who's more powerful based on some readings. Some guys with all that power can't even beat a little Miata or an S2000.
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      01-05-2013, 11:05 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jts1981 View Post
I'm comparing ess tune for 35i vs their tune for 35is. The point is the tunes are different even they have the same hardware. The 35is exhaust probably has a lot to do with that. The point is there is a difference between the I and is that is also reflected in their aftermarket tunes.
No it is the same tune on the same engine. You cannot run higher boost on the 35is because the turbos are the same. Yes, there are differences between older and newer versions of the N54, and there is the overboost thing on the IS which I think is the real element of confusion here. If the over-boost function does what I think it does, and you only floor it occasionally, you don't really need ESS with your 35is. In my understanding ESS is almost like having over-boost all the time, at all RPMs. But of course they also tune other variables than just the boost.

Btw the 35is exhaust is no different from the 35i. It sounds better because they changed the internals of the muffler, but the pipes, cats and so on are the same. That is why I claim the essential hardware is the same.

So again, I do not believe ESS or anyone else has provided any data that can be used to directly compare ESS for 35i vs ESS for 35is. It is also hard to make such comparison because it would be two different cars with different mileage, build date, drive train losses etc etc etc...
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      01-05-2013, 11:12 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickshifter69 View Post
Blah, blah, blah. It really comes down to the driver's skill!! Just get on a race track and bring it on. Enough with the blah, blah, blah on who's more powerful based on some readings. Some guys with all that power can't even beat a little Miata or an S2000.
Oh come on, talking about all the power is half the fun. Especially when it is -5C outside and there is no traction anywhere. Please let us.
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      01-06-2013, 01:09 AM   #59
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A local tuner advised upgrading to larger turbos without any flash can get you up to 500 whp easily for those that want the maximum power. Not for me.
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      01-06-2013, 02:15 AM   #60
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I feel like we keep going back and forth. I dont know why.

The exhaust and the tuning is different between the 2 models. Look up realm.com. They are clearly different. Another member even switched
his 35i exhaust to an is.

When you speak of over boost are you thinking the 35is only has 300hp and the extra hp is only during over boost?

Once again the point I am making is that the tune(both stock and ess) for the 35is has more power in general for a longer time. The 35i makes less hp and torque through out the powerband. I mean look at the dynos from ESS. Its pretty clear. The 35is makes more power and sooner then the 35i. I don't know why you keep fighting the fact. Both dynos are posted on their website.

The are the same engine, yes. But the exhaust and tuning make a big difference of how and when the hp and torque are produced.

You say the exhaust sounds better. It sounds better because there is more flow, and for a forced induction set up the more flow the better.


Quote:
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No it is the same tune on the same engine. You cannot run higher boost on the 35is because the turbos are the same. Yes, there are differences between older and newer versions of the N54, and there is the overboost thing on the IS which I think is the real element of confusion here. If the over-boost function does what I think it does, and you only floor it occasionally, you don't really need ESS with your 35is. In my understanding ESS is almost like having over-boost all the time, at all RPMs. But of course they also tune other variables than just the boost.

Btw the 35is exhaust is no different from the 35i. It sounds better because they changed the internals of the muffler, but the pipes, cats and so on are the same. That is why I claim the essential hardware is the same.

So again, I do not believe ESS or anyone else has provided any data that can be used to directly compare ESS for 35i vs ESS for 35is. It is also hard to make such comparison because it would be two different cars with different mileage, build date, drive train losses etc etc etc...
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      01-06-2013, 07:37 AM   #61
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Teague, your'e saying the lower the hp/weight and tq/weight ratios in the comparo chart you posted are better? Maybe I'm missing something, but increasing the weight or decreasing hp or tq makes for a lower number. How is that better?
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      01-06-2013, 09:19 AM   #62
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Quote:
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The exhaust and the tuning is different between the 2 models. Look up realm.com. They are clearly different. Another member even switched
his 35i exhaust to an is.
For the front part of the exhaust system, all the part numbers for the pipes and cats are the same:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...03&hg=18&fg=10

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...67&hg=18&fg=10

Only the mufflers seem to have different part numbers

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...44&hg=18&fg=20

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...44&hg=18&fg=20

This was for 2009. If there are really visual changes, perhaps it is related to model year and not is vs i. I mean they may have updated both the i and is at the same time with later model years. I did not go through all of them on real oem...

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When you speak of over boost are you thinking the 35is only has 300hp and the extra hp is only during over boost?
Nope. What I tried to say is that perhaps the over-boost function only boosts torque at lower RPMs so that peak hp is not increased (from 335hp). But I have no idea...

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Originally Posted by jts1981 View Post
I mean look at the dynos from ESS. Its pretty clear. The 35is makes more power and sooner then the 35i. I don't know why you keep fighting the fact. Both dynos are posted on their website.
I do not want to fight. I just did not like the V8 vs Civic statement. The facts you stated are correct. I am just adding the fact that the dynos are related to different cars and are probably measured with years in between! Essentially the HW and tune is the same, so any differences, if measured, must come from somewhere "outside". Ie somewhere not relevant.

But because you asked me to, I looked at the graphs again, and none of them are actually even our cars. The first one is probably an early 6MT 3-series (with ESS, only 6MT cars will rev past 7k rpm). The other one is the much newer 1M if the heading is to be believed. And we already know the early N54 and late N54 are not exactly the same. So how to factor all these things and years out? And btw, something seems to be wrong with the last graph as the rev limiter kicked in at 6700rpm. With the 1M, this should not happen until 300rpm later.

I would only use the dynos as indicators of what the ESS tunes do relative to the stock performance on the same car on the same day/dyno/fuel etc...
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Little known facts about BMW: 1) The N54 is still in production and used in the current Z4 35i and 35is. 2) In a Z4 you can get sport+ steering combined with normal suspension etc by selecting DSC=off. 3) All Z4s with 19" wheels are still only offered with the worst performing OEM tires ever sold with a DCT equipped BMW (Potenza RE 050 RFT).
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      01-06-2013, 12:44 PM   #63
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No worries. Its a good discussion. I don't mean to offend, I'm sorry if i did.

Its all good man.

Lol, the civic vs american muscle was just to point out difference in how power is delivered. low, mid range vs top end, Peaky curve vs flat/ linear.

a 400hp honda vs 400 hp american muscle is a lot different delivery.

As some one pointed out that 330hp on an M3 is different then 330hp on N54. This is very true. I think its true also that even between the N54's with the different exhaust and tunes offer different powerbands.

But I agree with you that we cant nit pick about these dynos. Too many variables. Its just a good reference for the general power band.

I'm picking up my 35is on Friday...

I'll post some pics of the interior, etc so people that are debating between the 35i and 35is can see. Either way its a win win.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjørn View Post
For the front part of the exhaust system, all the part numbers for the pipes and cats are the same:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...03&hg=18&fg=10

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...67&hg=18&fg=10

Only the mufflers seem to have different part numbers

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...44&hg=18&fg=20

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...44&hg=18&fg=20

This was for 2009. If there are really visual changes, perhaps it is related to model year and not is vs i. I mean they may have updated both the i and is at the same time with later model years. I did not go through all of them on real oem...



Nope. What I tried to say is that perhaps the over-boost function only boosts torque at lower RPMs so that peak hp is not increased (from 335hp). But I have no idea...



I do not want to fight. I just did not like the V8 vs Civic statement. The facts you stated are correct. I am just adding the fact that the dynos are related to different cars and are probably measured with years in between! Essentially the HW and tune is the same, so any differences, if measured, must come from somewhere "outside". Ie somewhere not relevant.

But because you asked me to, I looked at the graphs again, and none of them are actually even our cars. The first one is probably an early 6MT 3-series (with ESS, only 6MT cars will rev past 7k rpm). The other one is the much newer 1M if the heading is to be believed. And we already know the early N54 and late N54 are not exactly the same. So how to factor all these things and years out? And btw, something seems to be wrong with the last graph as the rev limiter kicked in at 6700rpm. With the 1M, this should not happen until 300rpm later.

I would only use the dynos as indicators of what the ESS tunes do relative to the stock performance on the same car on the same day/dyno/fuel etc...
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      01-06-2013, 06:49 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jparnes1 View Post
Teague, your'e saying the lower the hp/weight and tq/weight ratios in the comparo chart you posted are better? Maybe I'm missing something, but increasing the weight or decreasing hp or tq makes for a lower number. How is that better?
There may be other methods, but the method I learned years ago is dividing the vehicle weight by the horsepower or torque.

(Edit Note: I believe this methods is better known as the pound per horsepower ratio. The true PTW ratio method is dividing horsepower or torque by the vehicle weight, which would result in a higher number.)

So as you can see from the chart the 911 Turbo S has significantly better (numerically lower) PTW and TTW ratios than its sibling Boxster S w/ MT. So even though the Boxster S beats the pants off the 911 Turbo S in the weight department, the Turbo S' overwhelming horsepower and torque results in lower ratios. On the other hand, we all know the mid-engine Boxster S is universally praised for its balance and handling. So huge horsepower and torque figures are not the ultimate goals. A great chassis, light weight, tire/wheel combo, correct spring, damper and anti-roll components all come into play.

On the other hand, the Boxster S may have a slight TTW advantage vs the Z4 35i, but the Boxster S' naturally aspirated engine doesn't built that torque until much higher up in its RPM range so the win goes to the BMW with its TT engine. The 35is further improves that comparison, but when you add the tuner factor it's not really a fair comparison anymore. Refine a few of the Z4's suspension bits and I'd be curious to see if BMW could come up with something better in a Z4 model.

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Last edited by teagueAMX; 01-06-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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